# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 245
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4984 "2023-07-05T12:22:53Z")
I don’t know what that is, but it sound effective. 😉 Link [Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, July 4, 2023 | Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-july-4-2023) > [@](#): > > **Ukrainian forces appear to be focusing on creating an asymmetrical attrition gradient that conserves Ukrainian manpower at the cost of a slower rate of territorial gains, while gradually wearing down Russian manpower and equipment.** Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council Secretary Oleksiy Danilov reported on July 4 that Ukrainian forces are performing their main task of destroying Russian manpower, equipment, fuel depots, artillery, and air defenses and that a “war of destruction is equal to a war of kilometers.”[1] Danilov’s assessment underlines the prioritization of Ukraine’s ongoing campaign to attrit Russian manpower and assets over attempting to conduct massive sweeping mechanized maneuvers to regain large swaths of territory rapidly. NATO Military Committee Chair Admiral Bob Bauer reported on July 3 that Ukrainian forces are correct to proceed cautiously and avoid high casualties in the counteroffensive and acknowledged that the counteroffensive is difficult due to landmines and other obstacles up to 30km deep into Russian-occupied territory.[2] Bauer stated that Ukrainian forces should not face criticism or pressure for moving slowly. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4985 "2023-07-05T12:27:31Z")
So I guess we’re not going to have any major breakthroughs and sweeping maneuvers. A shame, but It seems that’s the nature of this war. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4986 "2023-07-05T12:54:17Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > North Korea has a gazillion artillery shells, and has now given about 20,000 of them to Russia that we kmow of. This could easily be a Chinese operation using North Korea as a cutout. Other Chinese client states could do the same. 20,000 shells is a day’s worth, maybe two. > **[Iran Sends Russia Artillery Ammunition](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/04/24/iran-sends-russia-artillery-ammunition/)** > > Iran has supplied Russian forces in Ukraine with over 300,000 artillery shells, along with a million rounds of other types of ammunition, over the last six months, The Wall Street... > The most recent estimates put Russia at roughly [10,000](https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-russia-gird-for-a-decisive-spring-campaign-after-a-bloody-winter-a3beef16) to [15,000](https://www.ft.com/content/75ee9701-aa93-4c5d-a1bc-7a51422280fd) artillery shells per day, while Ukraine is firing around 3,000 to 7,000. Even that shipment of 300K shells from Iran would only last a month or so. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4987 "2023-07-05T14:04:25Z")
I don’t like Putin. But, I suspect Prigozhin would be much worse. Definitely a right wing hawk. Prigozhin’s popular support may explain why he hasn’t been killed. Putin may wait awhile until his death wouldn’t be a problem. CNN feed > [@](#): > > In an exclusive interview with CNN, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said the country’s intelligence showed the Kremlin was measuring support for [Yevgeny Prigozhin](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/europe/prigozhin-putin-wagner-rebellion-analysis-intl/index.html) — head of the Wagner paramilitary group, which led a short-lived insurrection last month — and claimed half of Russia had [supported the mutiny.](https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/03/europe/zelensky-ukraine-putin-erin-burnett-interview-intl-cmd/index.html) > > The insurrection saw Wagner fighters, led by Prigozhin, seize control of military facilities in two Russian cities and march toward Moscow before a secretive deal with the Kremlin abruptly ended the rebellion. Prigozhin pulled back his forces, and has since been exiled to Belarus. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4988 "2023-07-05T14:14:20Z")
I thought the same thing. Suspect we’re more likely to see Prigozhin dying of a ‘heart attack’ a few months from now than this weekend. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4989 "2023-07-05T17:29:24Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > At least some of the ammo appears to have been white phosphorus shells. A future war crime was averted with this strike. Why do people persist in this silly idea that white Phosphorus is a war crime? It isn’t. It’s simply an incendiary, not a chemical weapon. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4990 "2023-07-05T17:37:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It seems that’s the nature of this war. It’s the nature of _any_ war from at least the Sythians vs. Darius I in 513 BCE. Even the ones that start out with elan (How many times have you heard “We’ll be home by Christmas?”) it devolves, on purpose or not, to [attrition warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare). ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4991 "2023-07-05T17:49:00Z")
I personally subscribe to the silly idea that incendiary WP should be outlawed for the same reasons that many chemical agents were outlawed following WW1 - they’re inhumane, and cause indiscriminate/undue suffering. Use of WP **is** a war crime when used near civilian areas…which I hasten to add Russia has _already_ been documented doing on multiple occasions in this conflict. This is perhaps a topic worthy of a different thread, though. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4992 "2023-07-05T19:34:34Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > This is perhaps a topic worthy of a different thread, though. Correct and sounds like an interesting one. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2023, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4993 "2023-07-06T10:30:26Z")
[Prigozhin is allegedly back in Russia.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66118007) Cleaning out his desk drawer? Nailing his windows shut? ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2023, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4994 "2023-07-06T11:38:26Z")
I don’t imagine Prigozhin has any intention of walking into a site that has been assigned to him by Putin. He will know that he is at the top of Putin’s murder list. Reports today that the US will announce tomorrow the supply of cluster munitions to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2023, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4995 "2023-07-06T12:22:39Z")
Breaking news: Russia has started testing the possibility of severing its connections to the global internet and building an informational wall around itself. > Posting it here as it’s a news item flowing directly out from consequences of the Ukraine invasion, but if there’s interest in discussing the implications of a major nation cutting itself off and isolating itself in this way, that should almost certainly be the subject of its own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2023, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4996 "2023-07-06T13:33:01Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > [https://twitter.com/natynettle/status/1676911112032231425](https://twitter.com/natynettle/status/1676911112032231425) And renaming itself North North Korea. My opinion: new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4997 "2023-07-06T20:52:18Z")
> **[Zelenskyy mauls Bulgarian president over his opposition to arming Ukraine](https://www.politico.eu/article/ukrainian-president-volodymyr-zelenskyy-mauls-bulgarian-president-rumen-radev-over-opposition-to-arming-ukraine/)** > > Bulgaria’s President Rumen Radev is equivocal toward NATO and hostile to giving Kyiv weapons. Nice one Zelenskyy > Gathered on each side of a long wooden table, the khaki-clad Ukrainian delegation sat stony faced, occasionally grimacing and taking notes, opposite Radev’s team as the Bulgarian president explained that there was “no military solution” and that “more and more weapons will not solve it.” > > Zelenskyy delivered his response with measured scorn. “God forbid some tragedy should befall you and you should be in my place,” he said. “And if people with shared values do not help, what will you do? You would say: Putin, please grab Bulgarian territory?” > > “No, you, as a real president, I am sure you would not allow a compromise with your independence. It is your right not to support aid to Ukraine. But I would really like you to understand me correctly,” he noted with barbed irony, as a cowed Radev intermittently took refuge in the note paper in front of him. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4998 "2023-07-06T20:56:35Z")
I find Zelenskyy’s blunt honesty refreshing even when I disagree with him (which is not that often). I would not wish to be the target of his eloquent, sharp tongue. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2023, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/4999 "2023-07-07T02:02:58Z")
Putin’s actions have consequences far beyond Ukraine. A F-16 training hub should be a big asset to NATO. > **[Romania could open regional F-16 pilot training hub for NATO allies, Ukraine](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/romania-could-open-regional-f-16-pilot-training-hub-nato-allies-ukraine-2023-07-06/)** > > Romania is considering opening a regional training hub for F-16 fighter jet pilots which would ultimately be available to its NATO allies and partners, including Ukraine, the country's supreme defence council (CSAT) said on Thursday. > [@](#): > > Romania, both a European Union and NATO member, has raised defence spending to 2.5% of gross domestic product this year from 2%, in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. > > The country, which shares a 650-km (400 mile) border with Ukraine, is host to a U.S. ballistic missile defence system and, as of last year, has a permanent alliance battlegroup stationed on its territory. > > “Together with other allies and the company which builds this fighter plane, a regional hub will be created in Romania to train pilots who will fly these jets,” CSAT said in a statement following a meeting ahead of next week’s NATO summit in Vilnius, the Lithuanian capital. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5000 "2023-07-07T02:44:55Z")
From @aceplace57 article above… > [@aceplace57](#): > > CSAT said in a statement following a meeting ahead of next week’s NATO summit in Vilnius, the Lithuanian capital. I find that rather interesting, they are holding a major NATO meeting virtually on Russia’s border–and even more pointedly, Vilnius is only 15 or so miles from the border of Belarus… An interesting message is being sent, I believe… Press on. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2023, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5001 "2023-07-07T10:49:48Z")
I don’t know how reliable this analysis is but Bloomberg are reporting that tank numbers have reached an equilibrium (without taking into account the quality of the tanks): [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0WGBiTWYAA_eLT?format=jpg&name=large) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0WGBiTWYAA_eLT?format=jpg&name=large) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2023, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5002 "2023-07-07T13:09:42Z")
As you may have heard, the US has decided to send cluster munitions to Ukraine. I personally don’t agree with this idea and makes me dislike Biden if he did indeed waive the rule about bomb failure rates in as mentioned [in this article.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66134663) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2023, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5003 "2023-07-07T13:19:12Z")
Cluster munitions are frowned upon because they’re really bad for the territory they’re used on. In this case, though, the territory they’ll be used on is Ukraine, and Ukraine has decided that the benefits are worth the drawbacks. While I might not have come to the same decision, I think that that decision is properly Ukraine’s to make. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=244) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=246)