# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 248
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5045 "2023-07-11T12:39:20Z")
Don’t SAMs usually have a very small explosive payload? It doesn’t take much to take down a plane, if you can hit it. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5046 "2023-07-11T12:47:52Z")
You don’t even need to hit the plane. If you can get the missile to explode reasonably close enough, the shrapnel alone will bring it down. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5047 "2023-07-11T14:10:49Z")
The S-200 system (NATO nomenclature SA-5 Gamon) is a no-kidding strategic SAM system , contemporary with and roughly equivalent to the US Nike Zeus system. > The S-200’s eight-ton missile is a potent munition. Its 500-pound warhead accounts for just a fraction of its destructive potential. Any fuel still in its tanks at the moment of impact would add an incendiary effect to its blast effect. “Fuel left in the tank” is a viable consideration, since the demonstrated ground targets so far have been shorter range than the missile’s 300 km range. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5048 "2023-07-11T14:15:25Z")
8 me orcses, 8 putin, luv me gamons, simple as. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5049 "2023-07-11T14:26:15Z")
OK, what the heck kind of anti-air use is a 500 pound warhead intended for? Even against a large formation of many aircraft, I’d expect a number of smaller munitions to be more effective. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5050 "2023-07-11T14:47:53Z")
Ukraine has a long reach. This type of attack has always been a concern for US personnel that fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. > **[Russian submarine commander killed while jogging in Russia | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/11/europe/russian-submarine-commander-killed-krasnador-intl/index.html)** > > A Russian submarine commander was shot to death in the southern Russian city of Krasnodar on Monday, the apparent details of which were revealed by Ukrainian intelligence that stopped short of claiming responsibility for the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5051 "2023-07-11T14:51:19Z")
A lot of that warhead weight is fragmentation, so we’re talking about the ability to down a target even if you don’t get very close to it. But it works out moderately well for ground attack too. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5052 "2023-07-11T15:00:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, what the heck kind of anti-air use is a 500 pound warhead intended for? Even against a large formation of many aircraft, I’d expect a number of smaller munitions to be more effective. Accuracy in that age was far less than current. Also the older missile weren’t very agile so the designers had to make, “close counts”. The US Nike Hercules, a contemporary, had a similar warhead. “T-45 HE warhead weighing 1,106 pounds (502 kg) and containing 600 pounds (270 kg) of [HBX-6](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Blast_Explosive) M17 blast-fragmentation”. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5053 "2023-07-11T15:40:44Z")
I would note that at this time we don’t know that this was a Ukrainian assassination op. This naval officer reportedly had the position of deputy head of mobilization in Krasnodar, and mobilization offices and personnel have seen numerous arsons and at least one murder in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5054 "2023-07-11T15:56:07Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > What does Erdogan get for these bold statements? There’s always a price. Last I heard, Sweden was dialling back its vocal support for the Kurds as one quid pro quo. The extent to which Kurds in Sweden will be thrown under a bus remains to be seen. And of course Sweden will support Turkey’s admission to the EU. But shoring up NATO is an entertaining consequence of Russia’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5055 "2023-07-11T16:23:03Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And of course Sweden will support Turkey’s admission to the EU. This is the most explicit quid pro quo. I would assume backing down on the support of the Kurds would be much less defensible so much less explicit, but I can’t fathom Erdogan settling for anything less. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5056 "2023-07-11T16:26:28Z")
**Reminder** , we have a thread for Sweden joining NATO. > [@Finland and Sweden appear poised for entry to NATO {2022-05-12}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350): > > And who could blame them?! Finland has quite a long border with Russia, [some 1300 km](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland%E2%80%93Russia_border). This video gives the perspectives of some diplomat types. [[Finland to apply for Nato membership after Russia's invasion of Ukraine - BBC News] ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID6XQgQZaqM) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5057 "2023-07-11T16:58:00Z")
[Berdiansk hotel that housed Russian occupation authorities and an industrial facility hit in a missile strike | Ukrainska Pravda](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/11/7410836/) > Melitopol Mayor Ivan Fedorov wrote "The Duna (Dune) hotel in Berdiansk was on fire last night. Dozens of Russian soldiers were killed in the fire, including at least one general. Russian media have confirmed the death of Oleg Tsokov who oversaw missile strikes on Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5058 "2023-07-11T17:00:47Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > The US Nike Hercules, a contemporary, had a similar warhead. “T-45 HE warhead weighing 1,106 pounds (502 kg) and containing 600 pounds (270 kg) of [HBX-6](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Blast_Explosive) M17 blast-fragmentation”. And that’s the “kinder, gentler” warhead. Most Nike-Hercules missiles were armed with a W31 nuclear warhead of up to 20 kton yield. > **[W31](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W31)** > > The W31 was an American nuclear warhead used for two US missiles and as an atomic demolition munition. > The W31 was produced from 1959, with the last versions phased out in 1989. > All versions were roughly the same dimensions and weight: 28–30 in (710–760 mm) in diameter, 39–39.5 in (990–1,000 mm) long, and weighing 900–945 lb (408–429 kg). The W31 is a boosted fission nuclear bomb. > The Nike Hercules was a surface-to-air or surface-to-surface missile system deployed around US cities and various... But Ukrainians don’t have nukes, so this is neither here nor there. The point is that the old high altitude long range SAMs had pretty serious warloads. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5059 "2023-07-11T17:23:15Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Dozens of Russian soldiers were killed in the fire, including at least one general. Russian media have confirmed the death of Oleg Tsokov who oversaw missile strikes on Ukraine. I would guess that there was some verifiable intel that Tsokov was in the hotel when it was targeted. Hopefully this sends a message to the next general who oversees missile strikes on Ukraine civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5060 "2023-07-11T18:45:02Z")
Maybe not established fact, but Ukrainian intel seemed to know a whole lot of details about it. [A Russian sub commander was shot to death while on a morning run inside Russia — and Ukrainian intelligence knows surprising details about his killing (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-russian-sub-commander-was-shot-to-death-while-on-a-morning-run-inside-russia-and-ukrainian-intelligence-knows-surprising-details-about-his-killing/ar-AA1dIEx8?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b63c4ef42fb74550852a5e681a28cda2&ei=58) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5061 "2023-07-11T21:27:15Z")
Maybe Russians Against Putin with Ukrainian acknowledgment. “Who will rid me of this turbulent sub captain?” [NATO has not given Ukraine an invitation to join until “ conditions are met.” Obviously Zelenskyy was not happy about it.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/11/nato-stops-short-of-ukraine-invitation-angering-zelenskyy) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5062 "2023-07-11T21:34:44Z")
I do hope the Ukrainians are targeting the competent generals and other high commanders, and leaving the incompetent bumblers untouched. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5063 "2023-07-11T21:47:19Z")
Macron has announced that France will supply long range missiles to Ukraine: > **[France to send SCALP long-range missiles to Ukraine](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/07/11/france-to-send-scalp-long-range-missiles-to-ukraine_6049285_4.html)** > > The announcement was made by French President Macron on the first day of a NATO summit set to be dominated by the alliance's response to Russia's war on Ukraine and Kyiv's push for NATO membership. SCALP missiles are basically the same as Storm Shadows - having been developed jointly with the UK. So the change here is that Ukraine is being resupplied with more of the same sort of long range weapons they’ve been using recently. Russia has little to stop these weapons and they are very accurate. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5064 "2023-07-12T01:52:11Z")
I’m frustrated that a plan for Nato membership can’t be promised _after_ the war ends. It seems unnecessarily cruel to leave Ukraine with this uncertainty. The article offers the explanation that there’s uncertainty about how the war will end. Will Russia still control some Ukrainian territory? That seems unlikely but no one knows how this conflict will end. Link [The reason the US won’t guarantee Ukraine joining Nato](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/07/11/united-states-ukraine-nato-joining-no-guarantee/) > [@](#): > > Ukraine was first promised future Nato membership in 2008, but because of anxieties about upsetting Russia was never offered a timetable or pathway to getting it. > > For many in Kyiv, it is obvious that ambiguity led directly to Russian invasion in 2014 and again in 2022. > Mr Zelensky and his diplomats have spent months trying to explain to Nato leaders that failing to fix it will only make another war more likely – and that they would not be polite about more “false promises”. > > “We are not going to buy it,” Dmytro Kuleba, the Ukrainian foreign minister, said bluntly last month. > “We will not play but the game offered to us – we will demand a change in policy, real substantial change in policy.” > > He gave a particularly withering assessment of the diplomatic niceties some members thought could paper over [a lack of progress](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/07/us-britain-nato-joe-biden-ukraine-entry-ben-wallace/). > > [The “Nato-Ukraine Council”](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/07/10/ukraine-nato-israel-style-security-guarantees/), announced by Jens Stoltenberg, the alliance’s secretary-general, on Tuesday is a case in point. > > It merely replaces an existing “commission”, which in diplomatese implies slightly less respect than a “council” but makes zero practical difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=247) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=249)