# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/521 "2022-11-11T21:32:36Z")
Some damage done to the Nova Kakhovka dam, presumably by the Russians to make its road impassable to Ukrainian vehicles. Maybe also a warning that any attack here could see the dam destroyed completely. > > ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/522 "2022-11-11T21:56:32Z")
An interesting discussion on the wrong lessons people are taking from the war (things like the tank is useless and drones dominate). Of course, this is all their opinion but they have some knowledge in this area. Still, just a point for discussion and not to say they are 100% correct. Video, I know…some of you hate it but there is no transcript I am aware of. (35 minutes long) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/n1TJtfQcGd8/maxresdefault.jpg "Ukraine War: Wrong Lessons @TheChieftainsHatch") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1TJtfQcGd8) ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/523 "2022-11-11T22:21:23Z")
It would be unfair to distract from this thread, but I learned something from this article published in The New York Times Magazine about the antecedent causes of this war. It is paywalled, apparently, though in post four (?) a freelink is given via Ukraine Today - which described the summary as _epic_. It may or may not interest. The article is not brief, but is well written, informative, easy to follow, perhaps even accurate… > [@Ukraine, Manafort and “Peace”](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-manafort-and-peace/974716): > > I’m not sure I understood all the causes of the current conflict in Ukraine until I read this excellent article. I knew bits and pieces but not the bigger picture. Comments welcomed. (Hopefully not paywalled.) is the article fair? Accurate? Informative? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/524 "2022-11-11T22:59:03Z")
Ultra-right-wing Russian nationalist Alexander Dugin, often referred to in the media as “Putin’s brain”, has criticized the surrender of Kherson and alluded to the disembowelling of Putin. > The “‘king of the rains’ (read Frazer)” appears to be a reference to to _The Golden Bough_ by James George Frazer, which reads: > [@](#): > > On a hill at Bomma near the mouth of the Congo dwells Namvulu Vumu, King of the Rain and Storm. Of some of the tribes on the Upper Nile we are told that they have no kings in the common sense; the only persons whom they acknowledge as such are the Kings of the Rain, _Mata Kodou_, who are credited with the power of giving rain at the proper time, that is, the rainy season. Before the rains begin to fall at the end of March the country is a parched and arid desert; and the cattle, which form the people’s chief wealth, perish for lack of grass. So, when the end of March draws on, each householder betakes himself to the King of the Rain and offers him a cow that he may make the blessed waters of heaven to drip on the brown and withered pastures. If no shower falls, the people assemble and demand that the king shall give them rain; and if the sky still continues cloudless, they rip up his belly, in which he is believed to keep the storms. I sometimes get the feeling that Putin might regret invading Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/525 "2022-11-11T23:06:52Z")
Immediately move from a sovereign to a commissar dictatorship, that is, introduce an ideology. Yeah, that’s the ticket. “We just need more ideology! If our glorious soldiers just had superior élan they would sweep all before them!” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/526 "2022-11-11T23:15:53Z")
I think what he’s saying is that the autocracy of Putin is basically a kleptocracy, in which everyone looks after their own personal interests, leading to a rotten and corrupt state. What is therefore needed is an autocracy based around ultranationalism, with an overt ideology in which people place love of the motherland of Russia above all else, so more like the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/527 "2022-11-11T23:17:11Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > so more like the Nazis. But then they’ll have to invade Russia to get rid of the Nazis! Isn’t that supposedly what this was all about in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/528 "2022-11-11T23:24:32Z")
There are bad Nazis, and good Nazis, I guess. (and Illinois Nazis, but we don’t talk about them.) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/529 "2022-11-11T23:30:53Z")
Their logic seems to be that the Nazis were Russia’s enemy and Russia defeated them, therefore Russia cannot be the Nazis. If Russia aren’t the Nazis, then the enemy of Russia must be the Nazis. It’s all a mixture of cognitive dissonance and projection. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/530 "2022-11-12T05:23:15Z")
Deny explains a large part of the territory on Dnipro River left bank is uninhabited desert. There are a few towns along the river. I suggest watching the first 8 mins while Deny discusses the Russians new position and how Ukraine can target highways into Crimea. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/mJR3Wmp37Fo/maxresdefault.jpg "Update from Ukraine | Ukraine Liberated Kherson Next step is Crimea | Ruzzians are running") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJR3Wmp37Fo) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/531 "2022-11-12T05:50:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Deny explains a large part of the territory on Dnipro River left bank is uninhabited desert. Just 15 miles/25 km from the city of Kherson is a curious small desert, Oleshky Sands. Just 7 miles/12 km across, it stands out on a satellite image, surrounded by green. [![](https://i.imgur.com/BBE2sa6.png) ](https://i.imgur.com/BBE2sa6.png) [![](https://external-preview.redd.it/QyEUls-VJBB9uBFqEPInIOeAcjKJRhD0q7ef3o2qpB0.jpg?auto=webp&s=1549e8526d8711da879a4b8f5e1ce30b2843f8d6) ](https://external-preview.redd.it/QyEUls-VJBB9uBFqEPInIOeAcjKJRhD0q7ef3o2qpB0.jpg?auto=webp&s=1549e8526d8711da879a4b8f5e1ce30b2843f8d6) > **[Oleshky Sands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleshky_Sands)** > > Oleshky Sands (Ukrainian: Олешківські піски, romanized: Oleshkivsʹki pisky) is a desert in Ukraine, inland from the Black Sea. It consists of sand dunes or kuchuhury (locally),\[clarification needed\] which are up to five meters high. Sparse vegetation can be located across the sands. > The sands are thought to be formed during the most recent ice age by aeolian processes accumulating and forming cliffs of lower parts of nearby River Dnieper. It is speculated that the amount of vegetation was reduce... ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/532 "2022-11-12T07:51:24Z")
It seems that Ukraine has freed most of the population in Kherson Oblast from Russian control. The Russians control a large area with small population. Hopefully Ukraine will regain control of that area next Spring. Deny has mentioned HIMARS can target the highways from Crimea and disrupt supplies ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/533 "2022-11-12T13:10:59Z")
Heartwarming video on CNN from Kherson: > **['Absolute euphoria': CNN on the ground as Kherson celebrates liberation | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/11/12/kherson-liberation-ukraine-robertson-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn)** > > CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson spoke to newly liberated residents in the Ukrainian city of Kherson after Russian forces retreated in one of the biggest setbacks for President Vladimir Putin since his invasion began. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/534 "2022-11-12T13:17:58Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > so more like the Nazis I was thinking while reading that more of imperial Japan. “We’re the best and our troops fighting spirit will sweep over those who value their lives too much!” ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/535 "2022-11-12T14:15:55Z")
What a wonderful moment for 🇺🇦. The government needs to think carefully about Donbas. It originally had a lot of separatists in 2014. The Russian population has probably increased significantly in the last 8 years. The separatist and Russian forces are dug in and it would require a lot of men and equipment to take full control of Donbas. I’m not sure its worth the cost to retake all of Donbas. It will always be difficult to govern and Russian partisans may be a persistent problem for years. Perhaps Ukraine should retake Severodonetsk and start negotiating for peace? Officials in Ukraine are probably talking late into the night about the next steps. There’s a lot to consider when moving into territory with a large Russian population. Liberating Mariupol will be challenging. > **[Occupied Mariupol seeing movement of Russian military equipment, says mayoral...](https://news.yahoo.com/occupied-mariupol-seeing-movement-russian-171000088.html)** > > The movement of Russian military equipment has been recorded in the occupied city of Mariupol, the city’s mayoral advisor Petro Andriushchenko said in a Telegram messenger post on Nov. 9. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/536 "2022-11-12T15:35:18Z")
A Russian starts to see through the blanket of lies: > Explosion at the Nova Kakhovka dam. Satellite photos of the damage were posted earlier in the thread. > ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/537 "2022-11-12T15:42:43Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m not sure its worth the cost to retake all of Donbas. It will always be difficult to govern and Russian partisans may be a persistent problem for years. Perhaps Ukraine should retake Severodonetsk and start negotiating for peace? I’d still say that the most strategically sound path forward would be to say that the Ukrainian mission is to give the Donbas and Crimea a fair and honest vote on secession. If they truly want to leave then they can leave but: 1. It’s a vote among people who lived there pre-2014. 2. The vote is managed by a neutral 3rd party. 3. Prior to the vote, the regions will need to elect a panel of investigators to determine the foundations of the separatist movement, whether those were justified, and what the benefits and demerits of secession would be. As you say, trying to take land where all you end up with is a bunch of people who hate you just isn’t all that great. But, it’s fairly likely that a lot of the separatist movement was engineered by Russia through their “Nazi” propaganda, broadcast into the region prior to 2014, and financing/arming rabble-rousers. It’s like if a guy likes a married woman and convinces her that her husband is a serial killer. Yeah, she’s going to want to leave him and, no, she isn’t going to want to go back to him. First, the ex needs to establish that he’s completely open to whatever choice she makes, that his emails, his finances, and everything are open for her to investigate, etc. that he just wants to be allowed to offer evidence that it was all lies to begin with. At the end of the day, there’s only one way to make someone like you and that’s by being likeable. You have to do whatever it takes to be liked by them. In this particular case, it means being the better man and saying that you’re just looking for a fair judgement, not unquestionable domination. The whole world would agree that this agenda is fair. It would be very difficult for Russia to argue that Ukraine’s agenda towards the regions isn’t justifiable. Russia will say, “They’re Russian speaker killing Nazis”. And Ukraine will say that the majority of the country elected a Jewish Russian speaker - they’re clearly not mostly opposed to Russian speakers and also clearly they are not Nazis. Russia would say that the Kyiv government is corrupt and Ukraine would point out that most of the financial questionability was from people doing behind the scenes deals with Russia. An independent, investigative panel is pretty likely to come down on the side of Ukraine. If you openly fight to give people freedom and you negotiate to give them freedom and you trust that history is on your side, you’re a lot more likely to get buy-in. And, if you can’t get buy-in from them after that then, probably, it’s just as well to not have them. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/538 "2022-11-12T17:38:35Z")
You can’t kill a ton of people and have 8 years of occupation and then pretend any election would resemble “fair” in any sort of way. After the dissolution of the USSR both Crimea and the Donbas voted to be part of an independent Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/539 "2022-11-12T17:49:31Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > You can’t kill a ton of people and have 8 years of occupation and then pretend any election would resemble “fair” in any sort of way. After the dissolution of the USSR both Crimea and the Donbas voted to be part of an independent Ukraine. This. They already had a vote. If anybody in Ukraine wants to be Russian there’s a shit-ton of real estate in Russia they can move do. Sell out and move and don’t let the door hit you on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/540 "2022-11-12T18:14:55Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Russia would say that the Kyiv government is corrupt and Ukraine would point out that most of the financial questionability was from people doing behind the scenes deals with Russia. “Mayor Quimby is soft on crime! Why, he let Sideshow Bob, a notorious murderer, out of prison! We can’t re-elect Mayor Quimby. Vote Sideshow Bob.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=28)