# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 291
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5910 "2023-09-19T22:50:14Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Here’s a fascinating video on how Ukraine is using drones with thermal sensors to locate land mines. I’m not sure this method would work in the winter but given the right conditions seems to take a lot of guesswork out of walking through minefield Every object absorbs and releases heat at a different rate so the software behind a thermal camera can be adjusted to identify those objects. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5911 "2023-09-19T22:58:14Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It takes two for peace talks. I don’t see Russia entering peace talks until/if every Russian Troop has been expelled from Ukraine. Then they’ll play the victim. Blows me away. Peace talks???. Russia invaded a sovereign country. The end of war talks should include reparations to the country that was invaded. Of course Russia won’t and can’t do it. There own economy is a shambles. Peace Talks? If my neighbor killed my family and destroyed my property, there are not going to be any ‘Peace Talks’ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5912 "2023-09-19T23:10:19Z")
Well, I mean, eventually there will be. It’s just a question of what the terms will be. Logically, the only possibilities are that one side completely destroys and conquers to the other, to the point that the losing nation no longer exists; that the war goes on forever; or the two nations engage in talks to end the war. Going on forever isn’t really possible, Russia is unable to completely conquer Ukraine, and Ukraine isn’t interested in completely conquering Russia. Ergo, peace talks. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5913 "2023-09-19T23:16:51Z")
Can we call the talks “Stop this illegal invasion you fucking Russian shitheads talks” Sounds more accurate than “peace talks” ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5914 "2023-09-19T23:24:58Z")
Thank you. Peace talks sound like a disagreement. This ain’t a disagreement. And Putin is talking to NK. What a mess. China sits on the side lines laughing ready to pick up the pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5915 "2023-09-19T23:29:49Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Thank you. Peace talks sound like a disagreement. This ain’t a disagreement. Of course it is. Ukraine and Russia disagree on whether Ukraine should continue to exist as an independent country. There will be peace talks eventually. Just as there was with North Korea after it invaded the south. There is no point on getting hung up on semantics. Negotiations on terms to end the war will happen, even if one side functionally surrenders. There’s a reason Hirohito remained as emperor after WW II. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5916 "2023-09-20T00:18:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Every object absorbs and releases heat at a different rate so the software behind a thermal camera can be adjusted to identify those objects. Presupposing the sensor hardware has sufficient spatial and temperature difference resolution above the noise floor to detect any signal at all. Modern digital signal processing is near magic, but even it can’t pull useful data out of silence or pure noise. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5917 "2023-09-20T01:36:11Z")
Wouldn’t the metal of a mine have a different heat signature than frozen earth, even when cold? Wouldn’t it be the differential in heat signature that is important, even at lower temperatures? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5918 "2023-09-20T01:38:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, I mean, eventually there will be. It’s just a question of what the terms will be. There’s also a very large question as to whether Russia will keep any terms they agree to for any longer than it takes them to re-arm. Ukraine absolutely cannot trust them to do so. Possibly some other country/ies can be gotten to keep the borders. Though I don’t expect Russia would be eager to agree to that. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5919 "2023-09-20T01:43:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Going on forever isn’t really possible While I acknowledge this is true, it could very well turn out to be another Korean War, which never had an actual ending other than a ceasefire. And even an agreement to a ceasefire I can see not actually taking place for years, if not a decade or more. It will more likely end when Russia pulls out completely exhausted and Ukraine has no reason to attack anything in Russia because it’s not threatening them, or Russia conquers Ukraine. The way things have gone those seem much more likely to happen than negotiations to end the war, if only because no one will trust Russia to abide by its terms if it gets anything it wants. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5920 "2023-09-20T02:06:20Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Modern digital signal processing is near magic, but even it can’t pull useful data out of silence or pure noise. Just look at what a FLIR system does in a plane. you can see through fog or late day sun haze. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5921 "2023-09-20T02:31:54Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Wouldn’t the metal of a mine have a different heat signature than frozen earth, even when cold? Wouldn’t it be the differential in heat signature that is important, even at lower temperatures? Semi educated guess here. The mines are buried and are in thermal equilibrium with the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5922 "2023-09-20T02:38:31Z")
But there still would be heat from the Sun during the day, although lower than in the summer, so wouldn’t absorption and cooling rates for metal and earth still be be different? After all, the mines are in the earth in the summer and apparently can be detected by their heat signatures, so not at thermal equilibrium then. Snow pack could affect it in winter, though, since it has an insulating effect. Interesting issue but I don’t want to hijack so will stop. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5923 "2023-09-20T03:00:35Z")
Random thought on the drive home today: Does Ukraine have anything like Wild Weasel? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5924 "2023-09-20T03:01:53Z")
The faces of soldiers after intense combat (below, War in Afghanistan): [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ddc1zyeX0AA7K3s?format=webp&name=small) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ddc1zyeX0AA7K3s?format=webp&name=small) [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AdkpZrfJK3g/hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEhCK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAxMIARUAAAAAGAElAADIQj0AgKJD&rs=AOn4CLCP3SqgJ0RZnkWCHH-yzmA08-2bSw) ](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AdkpZrfJK3g/hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEhCK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAxMIARUAAAAAGAElAADIQj0AgKJD&rs=AOn4CLCP3SqgJ0RZnkWCHH-yzmA08-2bSw) The same look on Ukrainian soldiers returning from the front line: > > **[Baptism by Fire: A Survey of First Combat Experiences - Modern War Institute](https://mwi.usma.edu/baptism-fire-survey-first-combat-experiences/)** > > When soldiers have been baptized in the fire of a battlefield, they have all one rank in my eyes. — Napoleon Bonaparte   When a young man or woman enters \[…\] ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5925 "2023-09-20T04:11:41Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There’s also a very large question as to whether Russia will keep any terms they agree to for any longer than it takes them to re-arm. Ukraine absolutely cannot trust them to do so. > > Possibly some other country/ies can be gotten to keep the borders. Though I don’t expect Russia would be eager to agree to that. If they were able to expel the Russians from their territory entirely, they’d presumably apply to join NATO the next day (I believe territorial integrity is a condition of membership). Russia ain’t going to attack a NATO country now. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5926 "2023-09-20T04:58:02Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But there still would be heat from the Sun during the day, although lower than in the summer, so wouldn’t absorption and cooling rates for metal and earth still be be different? Absolutely. If they were sitting on top of the ground in the sun during the day, they would be a different temperature for most of the 24 hour day. I think these are underground and therefore well insulated which would mean a very similar temperature for most of the time. My physics could be wrong though and there also may be more complicated sensing than just raw temperature ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5927 "2023-09-20T05:18:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Does Ukraine have anything like Wild Weasel? Not really. As a Soviet successor state SEAD was never a priority, because Western militaries don’t build out SAM defenses like the Soviets did. Ukraine did at one time have some old Soviet Kh-58 anti-radiation missiles and they have managed to jury-rig U.S.-supplied AGM-88 HARM missiles to fire from their MiG-29s. But just having anti-radiation missiles is a long way from a dedicated anti-radiation platform like Wild Weasel. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5928 "2023-09-20T05:20:32Z")
The mines are most apparent at dawn and dusk which makes sense. I would expect the SNR to correlate to the range in the daily low/high of the ground temperatures. A quick look shows that the range in low/high of _air_ temperatures is about double in the summer than the winter. If there is no snow, a range of 10 C might be enough. But as several have mentioned snow is a great insulator. Depending on the depth, density, and moisture it might be enough to make detection unreliable. Especially since false-negatives are life-threatening. On the other hand, FLIR cameras have a sensitivity measured in milli-Kelvins (mK) and they have better SNR when the imager is cool. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/5929 "2023-09-20T09:39:31Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > they’d presumably apply to join NATO the next day Now as to whether that vote would pass is another question. Right after the invasion? Very likely. No? Possibly not. More on topic: thousands of Ukrainian children from occupied areas have arrived in Belarus. While I’m glad they’re hopefully out of any direct conflict, taking kids is a shameful act. Olena Zelenska Is trying to get them back. [Ukraine calls for return of ‘abducted’ children as more arrive in Belarus | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/20/ukraine-calls-for-return-of-abducted-children-as-more-arrive-in-belarus) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=290) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=292)