# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 297
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6030 "2023-09-25T14:22:45Z")
The front is heating up and moving in Ukraine’s favor. Three Russian divisions would be? Maybe 2,000 to 3,000 soldiers? Maybe more? Link [Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, September 24, 2023 | Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-september-24-2023) > [@](#): > > Elements of three Russian divisions are actively defending against Ukrainian assaults around the Ukrainian salient in the Orikhiv area in western Zaporizhia Oblast. Elements of the Russian 42nd Motorized Rifle Division (58th Combined Arms Army, Southern Military District) are deployed and are defending at the southernmost point of the Ukrainian penetration and are engaging Ukrainian forces in Novoprokopivka (13km south of Orikhiv).[1] Elements of the Russian 76th Air Assault Division deployed to the Ukrainian salient’s western flank near Kopani (11km southwest of Orikhiv) towards Robotyne (10m south of Orikhiv) and are counterattacking there.[2] Elements of the 7th Air Assault Division are deployed on the Ukrainian salient‘s eastern flank near the Verbove-Novopokrovka line and are counterattacking there.[3] Sources affiliated with the Russian Airborne (VDV) Forces report that the 56th Air Assault Regiment (7th Air Assault Division) is deployed about 5km north of Verbove near Novofedorivka.[4] > > A Russian source claimed that the 7th and 76th VDV Divisions were ordered to conduct an operational encirclement of the Ukrainian salient, but that they failed to do so and that the 7th VDV Division’s effectiveness significantly declined after a successful Ukrainian strike against the division headquarters on September 19.[5] ISW offers no assessment about these reported orders to encircle Ukrainian forces beyond noting that it would be a sound practice for Russian forces to conduct counterattacks against Ukrainian forces’ flanks within limits. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6031 "2023-09-25T15:10:26Z")
U.N. inquiry confirms what we already knew: > [@](#): > > Russian occupiers tortured Ukrainians so brutally that some of their victims died, and forced families to listen as they raped women next door, members of a U.N.-mandated investigative body said on Monday, in their latest findings from the field. > > Erik Møse, Chair of the Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine, told the U.N. Human Rights Council in Geneva his team had “collected further evidence indicating that the use of torture by Russian armed forces in areas under their control has been widespread and systematic”. > **[Russia tortured some Ukrainian victims to death, UN inquiry says](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-tortured-some-ukrainian-victims-death-un-inquiry-says-2023-09-25/)** > > Russian occupiers tortured Ukrainians so brutally that some of their victims died, and forced families to listen as they raped women next door, members of a U.N.-mandated investigative body said on Monday, in their latest findings from the field. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6032 "2023-09-25T15:35:22Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Three Russian divisions would be? Maybe 2,000 to 3,000 soldiers? Maybe more? The 42nd includes(or -ed) a couple of Chechen battalions and at one time had an authorized strength of 15,500 as a [garrison division in Chechnya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42nd_Guards_Motor_Rifle_Division#Reformed), but has been restructured since. However even before the war Russian formations were often under strength. Since the war it can be assumed they usually are and at times by quite bit. The VDV divisions have much smaller authorized strengths - about 6,000 since they were reorganized on a smaller scale than the old Soviet divisions. So on paper that would be ~27,000-28,000 troops. But no way are they at paper strength. Regardless it says ‘elements of’ which could mean just about anything in terms of actual troop count. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6033 "2023-09-25T16:46:08Z")
In another illustration of what the Russian justice system is like, Head of the Chechen Republic Ramzan Kadyrov published a video on his Telegram channel of his son Adam kicking and beating a man in custody who was accused of burning the Koran. “Without exaggeration, yes, I am proud of Adam’s action”, Kadyrov wrote. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6034 "2023-09-25T17:14:55Z")
> **Hid off-topic post, please do not reply to it.** > > > [@Tamerlane](#): > > > > The 42nd [Division]…had an authorized strength of 15,500 > > > > The VDV divisions have much smaller authorized strengths - about 6,000 > > A little off topic, but I have a question and a bit of a rant: > Why do military analysts always talk about the “divisions”, “battalions”, etc under command of General so-an-so,without specifics? > Whether they are talking about history of World War II, or current news from Ukraine, they always use the same language, which is meaningless to most readers. > A "division’ could be any number of men. and vehicles. So who cares? > What I want to know is how many soldiers and how many tanks are shooting at each other. > When in WWII they tell me that Patton’s 3rd army defeated the German 2nd Panzer division…that means nothing. And now in Ukraine, this most recent post from the respected ISW talks about “elements of three Russian divisions” the 42nd, the 76th and the 7th --that also tells me nothing. > Why can’t they give us numbers of men and machines? > > (Note to mods: this post is a bit off topic, but I don’t know if tf deserves a thread of its own…so I put it here. I hope that’s okay) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6035 "2023-09-25T17:21:25Z")
Well, they have a theoretical fixed size according to their Table of Organisation & Equipment, although they may not necessarily be at full-strength, especially during a war. > [@chappachula](#): > > Why can’t they give us numbers of men and machines? They probably don’t know the current numbers of personnel of those units. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6036 "2023-09-25T17:24:20Z")
my (uneducated) guess: b/c today’s writers have no idea about what those terms mean in headcount and are to embarrassed to ask … (or there is nobody to be asked around anymore) I am seeing this a lot … wonky phrases (e.g. in macroeconomic context) are being repeated as nobody really knows what that means ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6037 "2023-09-25T17:25:01Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > hey probably don’t know the current numbers of personnel of those units. The specific size of fighting units is kept secert during wartime. By your own example of Patton once held command of I think 3 totally made up divisions in England before D-Day. But enough history and specualtion on a slightly off topic question, let’s get back to this totally interesting present war. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6038 "2023-09-25T17:44:22Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > (Note to mods: this post is a bit off topic, but I don’t know if tf deserves a thread of its own…so I put it here. I hope that’s okay) **Moderating:** It is not OK, do not do this again. But you got your answer and so I’ll let it go for now. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6041 "2023-09-25T18:16:58Z")
Rough numbers helps me to visualize the scope of the battlefield. The current battle near Zaporizhia Oblast reportably is quite a large force. That’s a lot of artillery and small arms fire. Must be pure hell for both sides. It does help that Ukraine is moving forward and capturing territory. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6042 "2023-09-25T21:30:39Z")
That last video reminds me of this 30 year old Doonesbury comic. [Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for February 24, 1991 - GoComics](https://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1991/02/24), minus that least two panels. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6043 "2023-09-26T01:06:36Z")
One consequence of Russia getting bogged down in its invasion of Ukraine is that it’s been unable to fulfil its commitments to its existing allies. Armenia is Russia’s ally through its NATO-style Collective Security Treaty Organization. Due to fighting with Azerbaijan, Armenia triggered Article 4 of the treaty, calling for military assistance from fellow treaty members. Russia did not come to Armenia’s aid, and the overall lack of support has led Armenia to consider realigning with the US, the EU and NATO. Today, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs posted this: > ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6044 "2023-09-26T13:41:58Z")
This is just too much. It’s like the Monty Python parrot sketch. > **[‘Dead’ Russian Admiral Shoved in Front of the Cameras](https://www.thedailybeast.com/dead-russian-admiral-shoved-in-front-of-the-cameras-to-prove-he-survived-missile-blast?ref=home?ref=home)** > > Ukraine had said Admiral Viktor Sokolov died when his HQ was blown up in a missile strike. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6045 "2023-09-26T13:53:40Z")
Weekend at Viktor’s! ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6046 "2023-09-26T14:01:07Z")
He’s just very sleepy. Shhh. Don’t wake him, he’s had a very bad no good day. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6047 "2023-09-26T14:25:41Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > This is just too much. It’s like the Monty Python parrot sketch. I thought it was more like the Death of Mary, Queen of Scots sketch. [I think she’s dead! No I’m not!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLyB08xXoBs) ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6048 "2023-09-26T14:43:24Z")
He just shows up in a video conference among a larger event, not in a “look this guy’s actually alive” way. That seems…subtle…to be fake propaganda. Isn’t more likely Ukraine was wrong in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6049 "2023-09-26T15:03:27Z")
We don’t know when video was recorded. It could be a still image of Sokolov from what we can see of him in the video. This is not proof of life, just as the Ukrainian claim is proof of his death. This is how to do a proof of life video, after Russia claimed Zaluzhnyi had been killed during a visit to the front line: > ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6050 "2023-09-26T15:22:26Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > This is how to do a proof of life video, after Russia claimed Zaluzhnyi had been killed during a visit to the front line: That’s what I mean, that doesn’t seem to be a Proof-of-Life video at all, not even a badly done one, just a routine Russian meeting of some kind. As if they weren’t interested in proving he was alive, he just logged in to a normal meeting via zoom. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6051 "2023-09-26T16:27:29Z")
ISW issues a strong statement of support for the Ukrainian counter offensive. I can’t recall ISW issuing a editorial like this before. I believe it is based on their daily analysis of Ukraine’s strategy and effectiveness. BBC issued a similar report about Western War Fatigue. > **[Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/it%E2%80%99s-time-west-embrace-ukraine%E2%80%99s-way-war-not-doubt-it)** > > Ukrainian forces have adapted. Ukraine’s military decision-making is sound. Now is not the time for Western doubt but for the West to embrace Ukraine’s way of war and commit to sustaining Ukraine’s initiative on the battlefield. > **[Ukraine war: How Zelensky is grappling with Western war fatigue](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66901719)** > > Ukraine’s leader has always been comfortable campaigning for help - now he’s having to negotiate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=296) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=298)