# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 302
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6132 "2023-10-08T23:39:19Z")
> **As speculation belongs in other threads, hidden by What Exit?** > > This war makes me wonder about the efficacy of tanks in forward combat. They are big and heavy and eat a lot of fuel – losing one is costly, and their size makes them prime targets that are really not that hard to total (as in render useless). Way behind the front, and in civilian areas, they are useful and intimidating, but rolling them into the fray looks like a losing proposition. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6133 "2023-10-08T23:50:55Z")
This has been discussed before as a separate topic > [@Are tanks of any use anymore on the modern battlefield?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-tanks-of-any-use-anymore-on-the-modern-battlefield/961813): > > I have seen it said that the reason one military needs tanks is to defeat the tanks the other side has. In Ukraine we are seeing Russian armor not doing well. Of what use is a tank if it can be taken out by a much cheaper system? Javelin antitank missiles cost around $200,000. Replacement missiles cost about $78,000. A TOW missile costs even less. An Abrams tanks costs around $9 million. So, why go tank-vs-tank? Why not make a jillion man portable anti-tank missiles and be done with enem… ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6134 "2023-10-08T23:51:30Z")
**Moderating:** Speculation belongs in other threads. Please see the thread linked by @gnoitall who saved me from having to look for the prior thread. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6135 "2023-10-10T02:20:11Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Destruction of tank: Dead without even knowing it. God rest their souls. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6136 "2023-10-10T02:37:43Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > God rest their souls. No.  ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6137 "2023-10-10T23:01:02Z")
The UN got it right this time. Russia lobbied hard to get back on the human rights council. > **[Russia fails to rejoin UN's human rights council](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67071697)** > > The state was expelled from the body last April after its forces invaded Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6138 "2023-10-11T00:29:49Z")
Once in awhile the organization can show some backbone. As long as the deck hasn’t been stacked too far in favor of the totalitarian states under the original Charter. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6139 "2023-10-11T11:36:16Z")
sorry, really should be in another thread, moving it so the mods don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6140 "2023-10-11T16:53:30Z")
Russia launched a huge attack and lost hundreds of soldiers & a lot of resources. The video gives a better understanding of the scale and losses. > **[Ukraines forces repel Russian attacks on Avdiivka front](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/10/10/7423540/)** > > Ukraines Armed Forces repelled all attacks by Russian forces in the vicinity of Avdiivka, Donetsk Oblast. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/nZxku2U_SxE/maxresdefault.jpg "10 Oct: SUICIDE OPERATION. Russians SET RECORD LOSSES IN 1 DAY. | War in Ukraine Explained") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZxku2U_SxE) ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6141 "2023-10-12T03:30:11Z")
Latest aid package from the US. Drawdown of existing stocks. 1. ``` AIM-9M missiles for air defense; ``` 2. ``` Counter-Unmanned Aerial Systems (c-UAS) equipment; ``` 3. ``` Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS); ``` 4. ``` 155mm and 105mm artillery rounds; ``` 5. ``` Precision aerial munitions; ``` 6. ``` Electronic warfare equipment; ``` 7. ``` Tube-Launched, Optically-Tracked, Wire-Guided (TOW) missiles; ``` 8. ``` AT-4 anti-armor systems; ``` 9. ``` Small arms and more than 16 million rounds of small arms ammunition; ``` 10. ``` Demolitions munitions for obstacle clearing; and ``` 11. ``` Spare parts, training munitions, maintenance, and other field equipment. ``` Weird formating from my phone. Better in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6142 "2023-10-12T12:23:17Z")
2+ leading spaces in content are interpreted by Discourse (Markdown really) as being a sign you’re entering computer code. Easy to fix while editing on a PC. Not so much on a phone. ---
**Author:** ![Kelevra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/97f17d/32.png) [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6143 "2023-10-12T19:35:48Z")
Well if you believe Ukraine reporting on Russian losses it looks pretty staggering. > If you can’t see it’s 42 tanks, 44 APV’s and 32 artillery in one day! Even for Russia that is unsustainable. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6144 "2023-10-12T20:59:29Z")
It’s unsustainable if it happens ever day. Is it? I’m all for Russia getting bled white then retreating tail between legs, ideally followed by some introspection and insurrection. But one good day’s haul does not a victory make. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6145 "2023-10-12T21:41:56Z")
thats the RU attacking Avdiivka … and A. is very well dug in … so it seems that UKR is degrading the RU very significantly … and ISW mentions that those are not meat-wave offensives, but more sophisticated … but extremely costly for RU with regards to all kinds of resources… probably THE reason why UKR offense is moving so slowly in the south … to avoid scenarios like that … and burning through your cache of materiel ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6146 "2023-10-12T21:50:55Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But one good day’s haul does not a victory make. True but that’s one day’s haul between shooting down your best aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6147 "2023-10-12T23:13:33Z")
Corrected copy US Aid 11 Oct. The capabilities in this package, valued at up to $200 million, include: 1. AIM-9M missiles for air defense; 2. Counter-Unmanned Aerial Systems (c-UAS) equipment; 3. Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS); 4. 155mm and 105mm artillery rounds; 5. Precision aerial munitions; 6. Electronic warfare equipment; 7. Tube-Launched, Optically-Tracked, Wire-Guided (TOW) missiles; 8. AT-4 anti-armor systems; 9. Small arms and more than 16 million rounds of small arms ammunition; 10. Demolitions munitions for obstacle clearing; and 11. Spare parts, training munitions, maintenance, and other field equipment. [Biden Administration Announces Additional Security Assistance for Ukraine \> U.S. Department of Defense \> Release](https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3553644/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/) German aid package, far less detail and includes future deliveries. "FRANKFURT, Oct 10 (Reuters) - Germany on Tuesday unveiled a fresh support package for Ukraine worth around 1 billion euros ($1.1 billion), its defence ministry said, adding the programme covered air defense, weapons and ground vehicles. “Germany will continue to support Ukraine with what it needs most urgently - air defence, ammunition and tanks,” German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius said. Pistorius said the package covered an additional Patriot air defense missile system - which was flagged by Chancellor Olaf Scholz last week - as well as an additional IRIS-T system and Gepard anti-aircraft-gun tanks. **[Germany announces new defense aid for Ukraine worth $1.1 bln | Reuters](https://tinyurl.com/yp6dopuw)** UK new package, even fewer details: "£70m of capabilities provided to Ukraine – including the MSI-DS Terrahawk Paladin, a platform which can track and destroy drones and protect critical national infrastructure. This latest package will also provide crucial equipment to help Ukrainian soldiers cross minefields, bridging capabilities to assist with river and trench crossings, and heavy duty plant vehicles to destroy Russian non-explosive obstacles and help build defensive positions to protect Ukraine’s critical national infrastructure."[Major new package of support for Ukraine's counter-offensive announced by Defence Secretary Grant Shapps - GOV.UK](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/major-new-package-of-support-for-ukraines-counter-offensive-announced-by-grant-shapps) ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6148 "2023-10-13T00:18:59Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > AIM-9M missiles for air defense; This in particular is interesting. The “M” variant of the AIM-9 Sidewinder missile is outdated in NATO service (having been replaced by the AIM-9X in 2003). If we were deliving actual air-to-air missiles, I doubt we would give these; they’re consideably less capable than almost any missile system in the field now. However, there’s a mention in the Secretary of Defense’s comments on this delivery that makes this make a bit more sense: > It includes AIM-9 munitions for a **new air-defense system that we will soon deliver to Ukraine** (emphasis added) From: > **[Opening Remarks by Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III at the 16th...](https://www.defense.gov/News/Speeches/Speech/Article/3553148/opening-remarks-by-secretary-of-defense-lloyd-j-austin-iii-at-the-16th-ukraine/)** > > Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III delivered opening remarks at the 16th Ukraine Defense Contact Group meeting in Brussels. There have been developments in the past of a surface-to-air adaptation of the AIM-9 platform as a moderately-capable SAM system. (For instance, the [MIM-72 Chaparral](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-72_Chaparral) system.) This seems to be to be particularly adaptable to close-in air defense for advanced Ukrainian formations, or as an anti-drone and anti-cruise-missile capability. I will be interested to see how this develops. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6149 "2023-10-13T00:42:48Z")
The AIM-9M is still a non-trivial weapon. The game-changer advantage of AIM-9X is the ability to be launched by stealthy platforms. Which the West are not delivering to Ukraine. AIM-9X has more range, higher G, etc., than AIM-9M But against even modern Russian equipment, AIM-9M is pretty darn effective when used within it’s capability set. Much better to expend them against Russian equipment now than leave them to rot in a warehouse unused. Whether it’s launched from an e.g. F-16 or a ground launcher. MIM-72 is way, way out of date. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6150 "2023-10-13T00:51:14Z")
More information / speculation here. Possible acquisition of Chaparral from friendlies that still use (Taiwan for example), modification for use with the IRIS-T (can fire the AIM-9X version), or integration with existing Ukrainian OSA (SA-8) launchers. > **[Mysterious Sidewinder Air Defense Systems Headed For Ukraine (Updated)](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/mysterious-sidewinder-air-defense-systems-headed-for-ukraine)** > > We now know for sure that Ukraine is getting AIM-9M Sidewinders for a ground-based air defense system that could have some very old roots. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6151 "2023-10-13T01:04:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > MIM-72 is way, way out of date. Sure, it’s based on the ancient AIM-9D. But it’s the idea. It’s looking like a 21st Century reinvention of the platform. It could even be based on the M-113 APC, since we’re sending those too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=301) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=303)