# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 306
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6212 "2023-10-22T19:43:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, something we haven’t heard much about… In the opening few weeks of the war, Ukraine was making a priority of targeting the Russian fuel trucks, and the news was reporting that they destroyed a significant fraction of Russia’s entire fuel-truck fleet. Presumably, they wouldn’t have stopped targeting them since, but Russia is still fielding motorized vehicles, that haven’t ground completely to a standstill. What’s the status on that front? Well, the front hasn’t moved much since Ukraine fended off the thrust toward Kyiv. Maneuvers for an attack on enemy positions just a mile or two away doesn’t require nearly as much fuel as a drive on a target 100 miles away. And the supply lines behind the fronts, though not invulnerable, are well established, in generally friendly territory, and protected by semi-permanent air defenses. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6213 "2023-10-22T21:09:51Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Just take out the tracks and you will use more fuel to move it out of there to the troops than it can carry. There was nothing in the article about what its delivery capacity is. I was thinking about the problem with horse cavalry. Operate too far from the base and the mules and horses bringing the feed are consuming all they carry leaving nothing for the troopers’ horses. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6214 "2023-10-22T21:34:56Z")
In principle, with tankers of any given capacity, you can reach any arbitrary distance from your fueling base… but it quickly grows to an absurdly large ratio of tankers to actual payload vehicles. England had some planes fighting in the Falkland War flying all the way from Great Britain, and needed something like seven tanker planes for every one warplane, with a complicated pattern of tankers refuelling other tankers so the other tankers could make it far enough to refuel the warplanes. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6215 "2023-10-23T02:45:20Z")
IiRC a US Army rule thumb in Afghanistan is they spent 100 gallons of diesel & jet fuel to deliver one gallon to the front line units. All in all, not an efficient use of effort. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6216 "2023-10-23T03:04:29Z")
Sure but at some point it is not about efficiency, it’s about having that gallon of fuel so you can use the tank or what ever. Not using the tank is way worse than not spending 100 gals. Not to say things could not have been way more efficient but there is a lot of value in having freedom of operation regardless of efficiency over having your freedom of movements dictated by uncertainty of supply for the sake of efficiency. If your enemy knows you will make operational calls based on fuel expenditure, that gives them an operational envelope to exploit. So long as you have the money and resources to do it spending the fuel over efficiency makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6217 "2023-10-23T03:21:49Z")
> [@Precambrianmollusc](#): > > Sure but at some point it is not about efficiency, it’s about having that gallon of fuel so you can use the tank or what ever. Not using the tank is way worse than not spending 100 gals. That has more meaning if you’re fighting a tank war. If you’re fighting a drone war it’s a considerable cost savings in both hard assets and support for those assets. Instead of sending 100 gallons just send 1 gallon via drone. No need to worry about freezing weather or muddy fields. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6218 "2023-10-23T03:27:14Z")
> [@Precambrianmollusc](#): > > Sure but at some point it is not about efficiency, it’s about having that gallon of fuel so you can use the tank or what ever. Not using the tank is way worse than not spending 100 gals. Granted completely. My point was simply that commercially insane levels of economic inefficiency can make complete sense in a military setting. The folks whinging about the poor efficiency of Russia’s developmental armored fuel tanker miss the point. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6219 "2023-10-23T10:11:39Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > they seem to be really smart on what they do, esp. NOT dispensing resources into stupid dick-measuring-battles Is anyone tracking Ukrainian losses in the way Russia’s seem to be checked daily? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6220 "2023-10-23T13:38:00Z")
The UK MInistry of Defense is tracking Russian losses. It’s an estimate. Guardian feed > [@](#): > > **It is likely that Russia has suffered 150,000-190,000 permanent casualties (killed or permanently wounded) since the Ukraine war began,** according to the latest update from the UK’s Ministry of Defence. If the numbers of temporary wounded (those recovered and due to return to the battlefield) are added, that number rises to 240,000-290,000, the MoD said on X. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6221 "2023-10-23T13:51:47Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > Is anyone tracking Ukrainian losses in the way Russia’s seem to be checked daily? Unlike the Ukrainian military, the Russian Ministry of Defence does not release daily counts of claimed personnel/equipment losses inflicted, and they haven’t released much information at all about casualty counts. Independent open-source intelligence sources count both Ukrainian and Russian equipment losses. Here are the relevant pages from Oryx: [Ukrainian equipment losses](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html); [Russian equipment losses](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html). ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6222 "2023-10-23T19:07:15Z")
It’s quite a toll on machinery alone. When do we know that such losses are too much for one side or the other? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6223 "2023-10-23T19:32:59Z")
Armored tankers make sense, if they can get fuel to the front lines where unarmored tankers can’t. Inefficient delivery is a lot better than no delivery at all, and petroleum products are one of the few things Russia has plenty of. On the other hand, if these armored tankers still get killed by Javelins and the like, then the choice becomes “spend a little money and not get fuel to the front, or spend a lot of money and still not get fuel to the front”. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6224 "2023-10-23T21:09:57Z")
Ahh cool , I misunderstood you, apologies. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6225 "2023-10-23T21:22:08Z")
> [@aceplace57 quoting The Guardian](#): > > It is likely that Russia has suffered 150,000-190,000 permanent casualties (killed or permanently wounded) What is “permanently wounded”? Something like a leg blown off - not fatal but disabling? ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6226 "2023-10-23T21:51:45Z")
Yes, some form of injury that makes them unfit for further military service. (It doesn’t take a lost limb to make it impractical for someone to perform combat duties.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6227 "2023-10-24T01:22:06Z")
Captured or defected would presumably also count as permanent casualties. There have been a good number of both of those. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6228 "2023-10-24T02:05:53Z")
Good news: "Turkey’s Erdogan gives green light to Sweden NATO bill Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has submitted a bill to parliament to approve Sweden’s application to join NATO. The move brings a long-running diplomatic saga one step closer to a resolution. Sweden had applied together with Finland for NATO membership in May 2022 in the aftermath of Russia’s full-blown invasion of Ukraine. However, Turkey blocked Sweden’s accession to NATO for months but [ended its opposition](https://www.dw.com/en/what-is-behind-turkish-president-erdogans-nato-u-turn/a-66194112) at a NATO summit in Vilnius in July." [Ukraine: Kyiv said it stopped Russian drone strike on Odesa – DW – 10/23/2023](https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-kyiv-said-it-thwarted-russian-drone-strike-on-odesa/live-67183051) Third headline down. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6229 "2023-10-24T02:27:22Z")
Russian Air Force losing the duel with their own air defense. > **[Russia’s Air Force 'eating into' aircraft lifespans, with no easy solution -...](https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/russias-air-force-eating-into-aircraft-lifespans-with-no-easy-solution/)** > > “When it comes to the Russian VKS all you can say sometimes is ‘thank God for shoddy maintenance,’” a NATO-nation military aviation analyst told Breaking Defense. One of many tidbits. "The two incidents represent a serial failure of either the Su-35’s sistema svoi-chuzhoi (IFF) that is produced by the Russian Central Scientific Research Institute of Economics, Informatics and Control Systems (TsNII EISU), or the inability by Russia’s VKS and its air defense units to effectively process the signals emitted by the unit. Attempts by Breaking Defense to contact the institute revealed that the institute’s website has been shuttered and that its facilities have been [closed down](https://www.tadviser.ru/index.php/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%A6%D0%9D%D0%98%D0%98_%D0%AD%D0%98%D0%A1%D0%A3_%28%D0%A6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%83%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%83%D1%82_%D1%8D%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%2C_%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B8_%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC_%D1%83%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F%29) as part of bankruptcy proceedings." Kind of critical for an aircraft to be able to identify itself to the air defense people. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6230 "2023-10-24T08:59:28Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > Russian Central Scientific Research Institute of Economics, Informatics and Control Systems (TsNII EISU) They probably went bankrupt just making the signs for the building. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6231 "2023-10-24T10:30:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > England had some planes fighting in the Falkland War flying all the way from Great Britain In the spirit of nitpicking, the Vulcans refueled on Ascension Island on the way. But yes, 11 tanker planes were required for the trip. > **[The Longest Bombing Run in History – Operation Black Buck in the 1982...](https://www.historyisnowmagazine.com/blog/2018/10/14/the-longest-bombing-run-in-history-operation-black-buck-in-the-1982-falklands-war)** > > The Falklands War took place between Britain and Argentina in 1982. The Falklands are a British territory, about 500 kilometers off the coast of Argentina, that Argentina invaded in April 1982. The British had to quickly launch an operation to... Nitpick to my own link: this is no longer the longest bombing run in history, the US beat them during Desert Storm flying out of Diego Garcia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=305) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=307)