# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 323
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6557 "2023-12-26T17:57:44Z")
Assuming there was at least a skeleton crew on the destroyed ship, if not a full complement, then for sure the casualty figures given are waaaaaaay too low. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6558 "2023-12-26T17:58:43Z")
Depends on if they had time to evacuate the crew between missile strike and large secondary explosion of ordinance in the cargo hold. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6559 "2023-12-26T18:01:28Z")
Also depends on whether firefighters were trying to suppress the fire between the first hit and the secondary explosions. Hopefully any dockworkers in the area beat feet at the first blast. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6560 "2023-12-26T18:05:03Z")
Several Russian ships that were attacked in the last year were listed as landing ship ( the Novocherkassk for example) Does that mean what it sounds like? I know we’re reading translations of Russian. Sometimes you can’t parse words in detail. Is Russia prepared to land troops in a new invasion from the Black Sea? Odessa for example would be vulnerable. _This is a simple observation about the destroyed ship’s name. Any discussion requires a new dedicated thread._ Man, the Russians have a twisted sense of humor. Naming a ship after a massacre by the Soviets. Ships are traditionally named after important people or major battles. The US often uses living persons like former Navy secretaries. USS J. William Middendorf was announced two weeks ago. > **[Novocherkassk massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novocherkassk_massacre)** > > The Novocherkassk massacre (Russian: Новочеркасский расстрел, romanized: Novocherkasskiy rasstrel) was a massacre which was committed by the Soviet army and KGB against unarmed civilians who were rallying on 2 June 1962 in the Soviet city of Novocherkassk. A few weeks prior to the massacre, workers at the Electro Locomotive Novocherkassk plant (NEVZ) had organized a peaceful labor strike which later resulted in bloodshed and the killing of about 26 people. > On January 1, 1962, the wages at the NE... ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6561 "2023-12-26T18:15:23Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Ukraine has hit Ropucha-class large landing craft _Novocherkassk_, probably with Storm Shadow ALCMs. The ship, a rather large vessel primarily used for logistics (i.e. moving materiel around), was reportedly carrying a full load of Shahed drones. Video shows absolutely immense secondary detonations, and photos of the aftermath that have surfaced on Telegram show a mishapen heap of twisted wreckage, not a ship. Putin’s alleged overtures toward a cease-fire may start to become more overt pretty soon. Meanwhile, I’m sure this was just a case of another Russian sailor careless with a cigarette! 😆 ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6562 "2023-12-26T18:28:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Man, the Russians have a twisted sense of humor. Naming a ship after a massacre by the Soviets. It’s actually named after the city, much like the US naming cruisers after cities in WWII > **[Novocherkassk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novocherkassk)** > > Novocherkassk (Russian: Новочерка́сск, lit. 'New Cherkassk') is a city in Rostov Oblast, Russia, located near the confluence of the Tuzlov and Aksay Rivers, the latter a distributary of the Don River. Novocherkassk is best known as the cultural capital of the Cossacks, and as the official capital of the Don Cossacks. Population: 168,746 (2010 Census); 170,822 (2002 Census); 187,973 (1989 Census). > Although the first settlement in the region was founded by Temroqwa Idar, the city of Novocherkassk... And yes, they can be used as landing ships. In this war they’ve generally been used as transports, since they can also be loaded/unloaded using cranes. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6563 "2023-12-26T18:29:31Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Several Russian ships that were attacked in the last year were listed as landing ship ( the Novocherkassk for example) > > Does that mean what it sounds like? I know we’re reading translations of Russian. Sometimes you can’t parse words in detail. Here is the Wikipedia page on the Ropucha-class landing ships, of which _Novocherkassk_ was one. > **[Ropucha-class landing ship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ropucha-class_landing_ship)** > > The Project 775, NATO reporting name Ropucha class (Polish for Toad), is a class of landing ship (large landing ship in Soviet classification) built in Poland for the Soviet Navy. The ships were built in the Stocznia Północna shipyards in Gdańsk, Poland. They were designed for beach landings, and can carry 450 tons of cargo. The ships have both bow and stern doors for loading and unloading vehicles, and the 630 square metres (6,800 sq ft) of vehicle deck stretch the length of the hull. Up to 25... ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6564 "2023-12-26T18:46:34Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > And yes, they can be used as landing ships. In this war they’ve generally been used as transports, since they can also be loaded/unloaded using cranes I know there’s been concern for Odessa since the initial invasion. It could be bombarded by heavy guns by sea. A small Soviet 2M-3M 25mm naval gun for example is cheap to fire and I doubt Patriots would be useful. The Russians have AK-130, a Russian designed automatic dual barrel naval cannon with a caliber of 130 millimetres (5.1 in), capable of firing 10-40 rounds per minute (per gun barrel). Russian Marines storming the beaches would ruin that city’s day The last big amphibious landing is Inchon. I seriously doubt the Russians have the tactical skill to replicate it at Odessa. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6565 "2023-12-26T19:13:34Z")
The NY Times took an interesting approach. First praising and then denigrating Ukraine. It’s been a huge week for Ukraine Imho. Their victories against Russian assets have strategic value. Losing ground in an already abandoned & ruined city is not really important. Link [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/26/world/europe/ukraine-crimea-russia-warship-novocherkassk.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/26/world/europe/ukraine-crimea-russia-warship-novocherkassk.html) > [@](#): > > Ukraine scored a major success on Tuesday when it struck a Russian warship at port in Crimea, one of the most significant attacks against Moscow’s Black Sea Fleet in months. But in another setback for their ground campaign, Ukrainians officials acknowledged that they had all but retreated from the eastern city of Marinka after a monthslong battle to defend it. > > The two developments underscored the diverging fortunes of the two combatants this winter in a war that has largely settled into a deadlock: Ukraine racking up naval successes in the Black Sea and Crimea, where it is putting Russia on the defensive, and Russia pressing its attack on battlefields in the east after blunting a Ukrainian counteroffensive. > > A day after Russia said it had taken [complete control of Marinka,](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/25/world/europe/ukraine-downs-planes-russia-claims-town.html?searchResultPosition=1) Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s top military commander, spoke in sober terms about the fight, comparing it to the scorched-earth battle for Bakhmut, the eastern city that fell to Russia last May. Like Bakhmut, Marinka held little limited strategic value, but is now a trophy in ruins for Moscow. > [@](#): > > The strike on the Novocherkassk came on the heels of another gain for Ukrainian forces: The military said it had shot down five Russian fighter jets in three days. Analysts said that the downing of the bombers — one of the biggest weekly losses for the Russian Air Force since the war began ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6566 "2023-12-26T19:28:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The last big amphibious landing is Inchon. I seriously doubt the Russians have the tactical skill to replicate it at Odessa. While it was certainly a concern at the start of the war, any plans for an amphibious landing there sank with the Moskva. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6567 "2023-12-26T19:34:54Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Russian Marines storming the beaches would ruin that city’s day Russia has (more reasonably, had) 12,000 marines (marine/naval infantry). They seem to have attempted an amphibious assault during the ultimately successful early capture of Kherson and were repulsed. They also made a major amphibious landing west of Mariupol as part of that campaign. They’ve taken very heavy casualties during the war fighting in different theaters, in common with other higher-quality units like the airborne troops. While many of those casualties may have been replaced by new recruits, their ability to successfully pull off a large-scale, complex amphibious landing after the loss of so much expertise is to be doubted. Russia (and most of the world) isn’t the U.S. with its comparatively huge marine corps. Amphibious landings would function as just part of a combined arms operation as at Mariupol/Kherson. If Odessa isn’t threatened overland already, Russia isn’t likely to take it by sea unless there is a general Ukrainian collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6568 "2023-12-26T22:18:49Z")
> **[Russian soldier fails to catch evacuation vehicle — video](https://english.nv.ua/nation/russian-soldiers-fail-50379410.html)** > > The Russian > military has once again disproven their propaganda myth that the Russian Armed > Forces never abandon their soldiers. > A viral hilarious video on social media showcases a Russian soldier’s desperate attempt to catch up with an evacuation MT-LB, while the visibly alarmed driver decides against waiting for him and his other injured comrades. My wife’s watching a movie, so I couldn’t listen to the audio. So I mentally put in _Yakety Sax_. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6569 "2023-12-26T23:34:50Z")
Musically, you’re not far off. It’s not YS but the same kind of bit. I couldn’t help feeling a bit sorry for the guy who ran so hard, almost made it aboard. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6570 "2023-12-26T23:49:24Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > I couldn’t help feeling a bit sorry for the guy who ran so hard, almost made it aboard. Assuming he got taken prisoner, he’s probably in better conditions right now than his brothers in arms who “made it”. And amphibious landings are hard, and very expensive even when successful. The US and Britain together managed to pull off D-Day, with full support from both navies and both air forces. There’s no way Russia in its current state could manage it. Probably not even at their height. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6571 "2023-12-27T00:00:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s no way Russia in its current state could manage it. Probably not even at their height. They can’t use them for forward operations because they’re essentially a giant casket. When the doors first open a single missile takes out everybody and everything. There just isn’t anywhere to hide. Once the area is secure they’re useful for bringing supplies in. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6572 "2023-12-27T00:15:14Z")
So hitting that kind of ship is a kick in the butt to Russian logistics, then, as well as morale. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6573 "2023-12-27T00:26:14Z")
And it probably hinders port operations, too, if only just by being a big chunk of metal that’s generally in the way of everything (plus whatever damage was done by all the explosions). I’m sure that has strategic value, too. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6574 "2023-12-27T00:31:14Z")
I’ve got to believe that those explosions have to have damaged some portion of the port infrastructure – how much, how important, how easily/swiftly repaired, unknown, but unlikely to have been minimal. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6575 "2023-12-27T02:47:13Z")
The Ukrainian fortifications held 9 years from 2014-to the present day. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Ukrainians temporarily ran short of rockets, shells and bullets. The fortifications sounded impressive when the well supplied defenders could fight back. Now Ukrainian forces will eventually have to lay siege to their own tunnels and bunkers. Unless they decide to encircle it and leave the Russians to starve. According to the article, Avdiivka - another key town near Donets is almost encircled by the Russians. It can possibly fall next. We’re seeing the culmination of months of brutal fighting by Russia. They’re willing to take incredibly high causalities to gain ground. They keep bringing in raw, minimally trained, and under supplied troops as replacements. They cost Russia very little because they don’t value human lives. Link [Ukraine war: Russia captures key town near Donetsk](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67820916) > [@](#): > > Mariinka, once home to 10,000 people, has remained in Ukrainian hands throughout the Kremlin’s war in eastern Ukraine, which began when Russia seized and annexed Crimea in 2014 and its proxy forces occupied parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. > > When the full-scale invasion began in 2022, Mariinka came under relentless Russian attack and was evacuated. > > “For nine years, the armed forces of Ukraine have made a powerful fortified area, which is connected by underground passages,” Mr Shoigu said, adding that this fortified area had now been cracked. > > "Each street has its own well-fortified and fairly well-protected structures from all attacks, both from the air and artillery, long-term firing points, complex underground communication > [@](#): > > The commander of Ukrainian Armed Forces, Valerii Zaluzhnyi said Ukrainian forces had moved to the outskirts of Mariinka. > > “We protect every piece of our land. Every piece. But when, on this narrow piece, enemy shells start to dig this place together with stones, with earth, with our soldiers, the lives of our soldiers are more important to us,” he said. > > Gen Zaluzhnyi noted that Mariinka had been held for almost two years, but it was destroyed “street by street, house by house.” > > “Mariinka is no more,” he added. > > The town has been used by Ukraine as a defensive barrier since 2014, when Russia-backed fighters seized large swathes of the eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6576 "2023-12-27T03:13:20Z")
You can scroll back a few months and see link after link of news reporting about the high Russian casualties. It’s become so common that I often didn’t post about recent engagements. The Russian military apparently doesn’t care. They haven’t wasted money or time extensively training these soldiers. It appears the supply of fresh Russian meat for the war won’t dry up soon. Eventually the Russian mothers, wives and fatherless children will have to speak out and demand changes. That won’t be easy when the State controlled press is ordered to ignore any protests. Ukraine has the opposite problem. Their soldiers are getting specialized training in the UK and Europe. They can’t afford high casualties with little successful gains. There’s a growing resistance to serving in Ukraine’s military. Ukraine’s frontline positions are holding. I’m beginning to doubt there will be a major counter offensive next summer. The minefields and Russian trenches are just too dense. It’s a hell of a problem. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/mud-and-bullets-retaking-a-labyrinth-of-flooded-trenches-outside-bakhmut/ar-AA1m0hGb](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/mud-and-bullets-retaking-a-labyrinth-of-flooded-trenches-outside-bakhmut/ar-AA1m0hGb) > [@](#): > > He estimated that for every Ukrainian killed, Russia was losing seven Wagner fighters — but they were constantly receiving waves of fresh troops to capture the trenches. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=322) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=324)