# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/641 "2022-11-16T04:16:23Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Terror tactics did not work on London in WWII, and they are not going to work today. Ukraine blows up a warship, an ammunition depot, a re-supply convoy; Russia retaliates by blowing up an apartment building and killing some grandmas. Guess who is going to win the war? Russia can’t win the war. Their most successful military playthrough would still land them as losers. The geography they gain will be grossly outweighed by everything they lost by trying to get it and the closer to a battlefield victory they get, the worse of a position they’ll be in after everything has resolved. It’s like if you’re about to be banished to an uninhabited Island and, before you get sent off, you decide to use all your supplies hunting down your ex-wife to try and rape her one last time. Capturing her, at the cost of all of your food, oil, clothing, tools, and other supplies just isn’t worth it. You’ll hurt her and she’ll have to heal from it but she’ll have friends and charity to help her through. You’re just going to the barren island with crumbs and shreds of cloth. It’s not a win. But that all said, the presentation that Russia is acting terroristically by bombing grannies is probably just poor reporting - I’d guess. They’re bombing the electricity infrastructure and, occasionally, missing the target. That’s not intentional. It is terroristic - if the aim is to freeze the people into submission - but it’s not bombing grannies while Ukraine bombs ammunition depots. Evil as it may be, it may be a sufficient blow to the health of the Ukrainian workers that they’re unable to supply the troops in the field. That said, I feel like Russia is missing the one of the most effective room heaters is a human body. If Zelenskyy starts telling people to group up into shared apartments, during the winter, that will probably be enough to render Russia’s attacks null. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/642 "2022-11-16T04:18:54Z")
They’ve been deliberately targeting artillery at civilians, civilian homes, hospitals, schools, churches, and apartment buildings for months. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/643 "2022-11-16T05:01:09Z")
I have seen a variety of articles say that but I have not seen any that provide any reason to think that these hits were anything other than a mix of bad aim and fighting going on from/to various civilian buildings. If, during the start of the war, Russia was deliberately targeting hospitals then it would be easy enough to ask Maxar to take sample images from towns under attack and count the pock marks hitting random buildings and those hitting hospitals - per square foot of the footprint. From there, you can say conclusively that Russia was targeting hospitals or not hitting them. No one did that and anything other than that is subject to confirmation bias. If newspapers couldn’t be bothered to do that, I’m certain that the US military has been doing something along those lines to figure out what Russia’s game plan is. They know, factually, whether Russia is targeting civilians or just accidentally hitting stuff while trying to hit their military targets. I don’t see, in any articles, any quotes from military figures that make the claim. All I see are accusations that they hit hospitals in Syria (reportedly - but likewise given no proper sourcing ever) and, ergo, they’re doing the same here. They haven’t even established it for Syria, yet, as best I can tell. Right now, Russia has knocked out something like 80% of Ukraine’s electricity and they’ve bombed a half dozen random civilians in cities like Kyiv and Lviv. I’m not inclined to think that their target is the civilians. I’m sure that they could do better than that, if it was their goal. The thing that they’ve made good headway on - knocking out the power - that’s probably the target. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/644 "2022-11-16T05:32:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’m sure that they could do better than that, if it was their goal. The thing that they’ve made good headway on - knocking out the power - that’s probably the target. I agree that seems more likely from an Occam’s Razor POV. I think the Russians are more than capable of using terror tactics and one could argue targeting the electrical grid might be slotted into that category in of itself. However Russia has a definite limit to its guided munitions supply. I doubt they are wasting them much, if at all, to deliberately hit hospitals just to show how brutal they can be. The simple fact is that in addition to cruise missiles they have been using a lot of less accurate missiles, like old anti-shipping missiles, that are not designed for highly precise strikes. It would not be much surprise if some of those (or even the occasional more accurate munition) are hitting wide. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/645 "2022-11-16T12:42:03Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Any Russian assets in UN nations that voted for the resolution can be confiscated, liquidated, and credited to Ukraine for rebuilding. Would that include Mitch McConnells Aluminum plant in Tennessee? If something like that where liquidated, would a lot of people be out of work? Seize it, someone buys it and the money goes to UK? But keep it open under new US owners? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/646 "2022-11-16T13:53:55Z")
**Modding** : KEEP POLITICS OUT OF THIS THREAD PLEASE. It would include _ **Rusal** _, the aluminum plant partially owned by Russian oligarch _ **Oleg Deripaska** _. His portion of the company would be liquidated and the money earned for the sale given to UKR. UK is United Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/647 "2022-11-16T14:07:41Z")
The big news is Russia launched the biggest missile attack of the war yesterday. But the journalists are focusing on Poland. Cite [Ukraine war latest: Ukraine air defence likely caused Poland explosion - Nato chief - BBC News](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-63593855) > [@](#): > > 1. The Nato chief Jens Stoltenberg says the missile that hit Poland late on Tuesday was “likely” caused by the activity of Ukraine’s air defence systems > 2. He echoed the words of Poland’s President Duda, who also said there was no sign that the missile hit was part of an intentional attack ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/648 "2022-11-16T14:14:48Z")
The missile in Poland was potentially a big story, but now that it’s been determined it was almost certainly an errant Ukr. anti-air missile, the story focus should be back on the infrastructure strikes. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/649 "2022-11-16T14:42:34Z")
The classic BM-21 “Grad” 122mm rocket system, if anyone wants to look it up. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/650 "2022-11-16T16:48:51Z")
Yesterday is another reason Ukraine needs modern air defense systems. The rockets are more accurate and effective. They also should be less likely to wander way off course. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/651 "2022-11-16T17:00:54Z")
Less likely is still just _less_ likely. Any missile has some non-zero chance of going the wrong direction, at the moment. What they probably need is a secondary system that tries to detect that it’s gone over the border into a friendly nation, and self-destructs. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/652 "2022-11-16T19:05:47Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Yesterday is another reason Ukraine needs modern air defense systems. Ukrainian air defense (and Russian) is actually very good. It was one area of advanced tech that the Soviets/Russians both concentrated on and excelled at. See the video I linked to earlier. Any missile fired has to come down somewhere if it doesn’t hit its target - it has nothing to do with being unsophisticated. Ukraine does need more air-defense assets, but not because what they have doesn’t work well - it does. It’s just that attrition is whittling away at its stock of missiles. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2022, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/653 "2022-11-17T05:07:17Z")
Putin should be given 1 warning to cease attacking infrastructure or face a similar fate. NATO could easily supply Ukraine with a plan to knock out Russia’s electrical grid with attacks designed to create cascade failure. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2022, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/654 "2022-11-17T09:41:27Z")
And who should give that warning? Ukraine? Can they back it up? No one else should give such an ultimatum unless you want to declare open war on Russia and spread the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2022, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/655 "2022-11-17T12:10:41Z")
It never stops. Now a gas plant got hit. > **[Ukraine war: 10 million without power after Russian strikes](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63659370)** > > At least seven are killed in a new Russian missile barrage, days after an even bigger bombardment. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2022, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/656 "2022-11-17T13:18:44Z")
From bbc article. Good news. I wonder about next years crop? So many men in the military. I hope they’ve planted. > [@](#): > > In other developments, the Ukrainian government has said a deal that allows it to export of grain by ships on the Black Sea has been extended for another 120 days ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2022, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/657 "2022-11-17T23:55:17Z")
> [Australian mining billionaire Andrew Forrest will invest $740 million in Ukraine’s private sector](https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/andrew-forrest-s-740-million-bet-on-ukraine-20221116-p5byx4.html) to kick-start its post-war economy, marking the first tranche of a $US100 billion global fund that has been described as Ukraine’s “Marshall Plan”. > > The fund, which has been negotiated between Forrest, Kyiv, Washington, Canberra and London for nine months, will be launched on Thursday. It will be led by BlackRock, one of the world’s largest asset managers. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/658 "2022-11-18T02:29:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And who should give that warning? Ukraine? Can they back it up? Yes. temporary power outages can be done with drones. No explosives needed. Just drop carbon filament ribbons on substations. This was done in the Kosovo war. It would serve 2 purposes. Russian people will experience short term outages first hand without casualties. Putin looks foolish for killing Ukrainians by aggressively doing the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/659 "2022-11-18T04:10:12Z")
A example of how you get PTSD. Could anyone survive this job without nightmares for the rest of their life? These men are avoiding booby traps, mines, and the enemy that’s shooting at them. Just to reach the bodies. What a messed up job. > **[Ukraine war: The men who bring back the dead](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63627345)** > > Artur and Denys bring dignity to victims of the war - both friend and foe. > [@](#): > > Inside the collapsed structure there are the charred remains of three bodies. At first it’s hard to distinguish the human remains from the burnt-out timbers. Slowly Artur and Denys begin to identify bones. They carefully comb through what’s left - looking for any signs of identification. > > This time they’re not recovering their own but dead Russians. No identification papers survived the inferno, but Artur and Denys find the blackened, burnt buckle of a Russian military belt. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/660 "2022-11-18T09:22:55Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > A example of how you get PTSD. Could anyone survive this job without nightmares for the rest of their life? Not everyone gets PTSD There are people in civilian life who recover dead bodies as a profession, including accident and crime scenes. They don’t all become shattered wrecks. Yes, war adds additional stress and tension, but there’s nowhere in Ukraine without that. For some this is actually fulfilling work. They’re doing a tough job that most people see as essential. And they’re not having to kill anyone to do it. They can relieve emotional suffering for the living. They don’t have to witness the prior suffering and dying. It’s no “messed up” than anything else in war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=34)