# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 345
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7006 "2024-03-10T19:30:45Z")
Ukraine has already negotiated. The result of that negotiation, which Russia agreed to decades ago, was that Crimea and all the rest are part of Ukraine. The problem isn’t getting to an agreement; the problem is getting Russia to keep the agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7007 "2024-03-10T19:55:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ukraine has already negotiated. And the negotiated away their nuclear weapons and got lies in exchange. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7008 "2024-03-10T22:10:10Z")
The War, Russian Home Front: [https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/world/russian-student-jailed-renaming-wifi-ukraine-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/world/russian-student-jailed-renaming-wifi-ukraine-intl/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7009 "2024-03-10T22:21:49Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > The War, Russian Home Front: > > [https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/world/russian-student-jailed-renaming-wifi-ukraine-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/world/russian-student-jailed-renaming-wifi-ukraine-intl/index.html) “Public display of Nazi symbols” 🤔. Hmph. Led me down a short rabbit hole into [the wiki article on the phrase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava_Ukraini). ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7010 "2024-03-10T23:41:59Z")
Interesting article. I wonder why it’s _Slava Ukraini!_ on the one hand and _Heroiam Slava!_ on the other. You’d think “slava” would be on the same end in both phrases. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7011 "2024-03-10T23:56:28Z")
Maybe it’s like the English equivalent of “Glory [to] Ukraine!” (Slava Ukraini!) vs. “[A] Hero’s Glory!” (Heroiam Slava!). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7012 "2024-03-11T11:22:39Z")
[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html) …and there’s your problem right there. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7013 "2024-03-11T12:14:36Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Interesting article. I wonder why it’s _Slava Ukraini!_ on the one hand and _Heroiam Slava!_ on the other. You’d think “slava” would be on the same end in both phrases. You are missing the fact that it is a symmetric call and (inverted) response: > Слава Україні — Героям Слава! [cf.: Слава, Слава, Слава героям!!! // Впрочем, / им / довольно воздали дани. / Теперь / поговорим / о дряни.] compare: _as-salaamu alaykum — wa alaykumu s-salaam_ [vs simply repeating the greeting] ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7014 "2024-03-11T13:52:53Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > [cf.: Слава, Слава, Слава героям!!! // Впрочем, / им / довольно воздали дани. / Теперь / поговорим / о дряни.] Glory, Glory, Glory to heroes!!! / But they / at the least, are never forgot. What I intend / to talk of today / is rot. / Revolutionary tempests grow quiet, seem far. / With duckweed the Soviet mishmash gets coated. / And now / from the back of the RSFSR / the philistine’s visage / pokes out, bloated… ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7015 "2024-03-11T15:03:58Z")
The obvious solution is to target the plants. But, it’s probably located far away from Ukraine. The Guardian feed > [@](#): > > ## Russia producing three times more artillery shells than US and Europe - report > > Russia appears on track to produce nearly three times more artillery munitions than the US and [Europe](https://www.theguardian.com/world/europe-news), CNN reports. > > [The outlet reports](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html): > > > _Russia is producing about 250,000 artillery munitions per month, or about 3 million a year, according to Nato intelligence estimates of Russian defence production shared with CNN, as well as sources familiar with western efforts to arm Ukraine._ > > > > _Collectively, the US and Europe have the capacity to generate only about 1.2 million munitions annually to send to Kyiv, a senior European intelligence official told CNN._ > > > > _The US military set a goal to produce 100,000 rounds of artillery a month by the end of 2025 – less than half of the Russian monthly output – and even that number is now out of reach with $60bn in Ukraine funding stalled in Congress, a senior Army official told reporters last week._ > > > > _“What we are in now is a production war,” a senior Nato official told CNN. “The outcome in Ukraine depends on how each side is equipped to conduct this war.”_ > > > > **Officials say Russia is currently firing around 10,000 shells a day, compared to just 2,000 a day from the Ukrainian side.** _The ratio is worse in some places along the 600-mile front, according to a European intelligence official_ ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7016 "2024-03-11T15:13:12Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The obvious solution is to target the plants. Well no, the obvious solution is to get off our asses and start sending Ukraine more ammunition. But _certain parties_ are doing everything they can to disallow that solution. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7017 "2024-03-11T15:28:37Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Well no, the obvious solution is to get off our asses and start sending Ukraine more ammunition. But _certain parties_ are doing everything they can to disallow that solution. How can the U.S. send ammunition it isn’t producing? I mean, we’re two years into a major European war and NATO hasn’t ramped up production yet - even though they _know_ that they’ll need the ammo at some point, either now or to refill stocks after the war is over. Frankly, the West deserves to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7018 "2024-03-11T15:38:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How can the U.S. send ammunition it isn’t producing? Russian dictators hate this one trick! > **[Joe Biden Could Send Millions Of Artillery Shells To Ukraine, For Free,...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/02/14/joe-biden-could-send-millions-of-artillery-shells-to-ukraine-for-free-tomorrow-and-its-perfectly-legal/?sh=6e3a01d620c7)** > > There’s a bureaucratically complex but perfectly legal way for the administration of Pres. Joe Biden to send to Ukraine the thing Ukrainian brigades need most. Shells. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7019 "2024-03-11T15:41:06Z")
And when that runs out, then what? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7020 "2024-03-11T15:45:03Z")
As pointed out, those stockpiles are large enough to support several years of fighting at the levels we’ve seen. That gives us time to pull our other head out of our other ass, and start producing new ammunition at higher rates. That would require conclusively trouncing the Republicans in the upcoming election, however. I can’t help you with that part. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7021 "2024-03-11T15:54:56Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Maybe it’s like the English equivalent of “Glory [to] Ukraine!” (Slava Ukraini!) vs. “[A] Hero’s Glory!” (Heroiam Slava!). No, Ukrainian is a lot like Russian, with numerous noun declensions that make word order very flexible. I believe they (both) have a tendency to emphasize a word by placing it forward in a phrase or sentence. “_Heroyam Slava!_” is literally “To the heroes, glory!” emphasizing the importance of the heroes by placing them forward. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7022 "2024-03-11T16:48:26Z")
> unreliable and unsafe, as any particular submunition has [up to a 14-percent chance of being a dud](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/us/cluster-weapons-duds-ukraine.html). Well, if the Ukrainians are happy that there’s an 86% chance they’ll be OK… ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7023 "2024-03-11T17:13:48Z")
Some problems with the CNN article. First off, 3 million vs 1.2 million is 2.5x, not 3x. Second, according to this usually reasonably reliable Twitter source, apparently the 3 million figure includes all calibres while the 1.2 million figure is 155mm only. Russian production of 152mm is just 1.5 million. I don’t see him being fack-checked in the comments, which he probably would be if he were misrepresenting public production figures. > > > NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 @NOELreports Finally, the Russian figure is probably very nearly their maximum production rate, where the west has a lot more capacity to ramp up production. And European production is being ramped up substantially. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7024 "2024-03-11T17:26:29Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Well, if the Ukrainians are happy that there’s an 86% chance they’ll be OK… Those are the sub-munitions, the little bomblets packed inside the larger shell. They’re considered “unsafe” because they leave a bunch of unexploded ordnance randomly dispersed across the battlefield, which is dangerous and expensive to clean up, and you’re never quite sure if you’ve gotten them all. But that risk isn’t so critical when the only other option is letting Putin win. Misfired bomblets _may_ kill people in the coming years, but a victorious Putin will _certainly_ kill people in the coming years. At least with the bomblets, we have a process to mitigate the worst effects. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/7025 "2024-03-11T17:30:15Z")
Sad, when thousands of unmarked UXO is the lesser of two evils. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=344) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=346)