# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/681 "2022-11-20T21:04:11Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > It’s well known that Russians are careless with cigarettes. And windows. More evidence that Smoking kills! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2022, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/682 "2022-11-20T21:17:51Z")
Russia war crimes against civilians has to be addressed. The number of missile attacks in the past month can’t be ignored. Mykhaylo Podolyak is correct that they can’t seek peace with Ukraine’s infrastructure destroyed and 20% of their land occupied. The guardian feed > [@](#): > > **Negotiating with Russia would be “capitulation”, a key adviser to the Ukrainian presidency has said.** Mykhaylo Podolyak said attempts by the west to urge Ukraine to negotiate with Moscow were “bizarre” given a series of major military victories by Kyiv. He added it would mean that a country “that recovers its territories must capitulate to the country that is losing”. The comments come after recent US media reports that some senior officials were beginning to encourage Ukraine to consider talks. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/683 "2022-11-20T21:36:38Z")
I’d support the idea that Ukraine should show they’re open to talks. Not to the point of making any concessions, but open to talks. No harm in it. As I’ve seen mentioned before (quite possibly here) their first demand can be Crimea. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2022, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/684 "2022-11-20T21:44:23Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Russia war crimes against civilians has to be addressed. They never will be. Unless NATO invades Russia and physically seizes the people responsible, no-one will ever face a tribunal. Russia will not hand anyone over willingly, and will never prosecute anyone themselves. It’s just not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2022, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/685 "2022-11-20T22:12:31Z")
I agree it is probably a long shot, but I can imagine scenarios where it could happen. For example I could see handing over war criminals could be made as a condition for the west lifting sanctions, and if the economy was bad enough (and Russia underwent regime change) I could see them agreeing. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2022, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/686 "2022-11-20T22:43:57Z")
Maybe. I just think that the focus should be on victory, not justice. Victory is achievable; justice isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2022, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/687 "2022-11-20T22:44:55Z")
Correct, justice will be a luxury sadly, not a must have. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2022, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/688 "2022-11-20T23:07:18Z")
In my personal and otherwise experience, there is no such thing as justice. There is such thing as retribution, vengeance, humiliation, punishment, and also such things as genuine repentance and atonement … but not justice. It’s a figment. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/689 "2022-11-20T23:48:30Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > It may well be a coincidence. The Ukrainians don’t even have to take credit for it or acknowledge it. Just let the idea prey on Russian minds, as @gnoitall mentioned. True They need to come up with a combat patch that is a cigarette and a medical warning.about smoking. ---
**Author:** ![SoToasty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sotoasty/32/2803_2.png) [@SoToasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoToasty)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/690 "2022-11-21T01:00:38Z")
Here is a possible Moscow smoking incident. > **[Yet another example of the Ruziztz' unbridled urge to play with matches : A...](https://mpost.tribel.com/public/posts/6ea5c9b0-6937-11ed-866e-a357b60b1c0f)** > > Yet another example of the Ruziztz' unbridled urge to play with matches : > A large-scale fire is ongoing in the center of Moscow. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/691 "2022-11-21T01:44:27Z")
So 5 NATO carrier groups are patrolling the waters of Europe currently. > **[5 NATO carrier strike groups, including the US Navy's newest supercarrier,...](https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-carrier-strike-groups-us-navy-supercarrier-patrolling-waters-europe-2022-11)** > > A top US defense official told reporters at a briefing that the patrols are an opportunity for allies to practice NATO's "deter and defend" concept. I got curious to details: The **Ford** & the **Bush** are Super Carriers of course with vast powers. The Ford is the most advance Warship in the history of the World. Combine figure about 160 Jets. The **Cavour** is the flagship of the Italian Navy but is basically a light carrier. 10 × F-35B Lightning II & - 12 × AgustaWestland AW101. The **Charles de Gaulle** carries 30-40 aircraft. It is a Nuke. The **HMS Queen Elizabeth** is probably the most advanced and powerful non-US carrier in the World. She carries up to 65 aircraft. I believe she is rated as a Super Carrier also. Combined this is larger than most nations Air Forces of course. Then there are the escort fleets and probably hiding a few extra ballistic submarines taking advantage of the giant umbrella of the fleets. This would be a serious challenge to Russia’s Air control without even counting the NATO air force assets in the area. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/692 "2022-11-21T02:56:24Z")
The old border disputes between Poland and Ukraine were healed by the compassionate response to Ukrainian refugees. Both countries understand Russia is their common threat. I wasn’t aware of their border history. > **[In eastern Poland, Putin’s war has turned former enemies into friends](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/19/eastern-poland-putin-war-russian-aggression-poles-ukrainians-history)** > > Opposition to Russian aggression has helped Poles and Ukrainians put bitter 20th-century history behind them ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/693 "2022-11-21T08:27:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I wasn’t aware of their border history. You didn’t know that the Soviets moved the entire country of Poland several hundred miles to the west in 1945? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/694 "2022-11-21T10:39:24Z")
_I_ didn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/695 "2022-11-21T10:57:44Z")
Yeah, they chopped off the eastern quarter of Poland and attached it to what’s now Ukraine and Belarus, and chopped off the eastern half of East Germany and attached it to Poland. Wild stuff. > **[Territorial changes of Poland immediately after World War II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland_immediately_after_World_War_II#/media/File:Curzon_line_en.svg)** > > At the end of World War II, Poland underwent major changes to the location of its international border. In 1945, after the defeat of Nazi Germany, the Oder–Neisse line became its western border, resulting in gaining the Recovered Territories from Germany. The Curzon Line became its eastern border, resulting in the loss of the Eastern Borderlands to the Soviet Union. > These decisions were in accordance with the decisions made first by the Allies at the Tehran Conference of 1943 where the Soviet ... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/696 "2022-11-21T11:47:50Z")
Plus, going back even further, in the break-up of the Russian Empire following WWI, there were border wars between Poland and the short-lived Ukrainian People’s Republic. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/697 "2022-11-21T13:41:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You didn’t know that the Soviets moved the entire country of Poland several hundred miles to the west in 1945? Never heard anything about it. Today I learned some history. Now I understand why Russia thinks they can change the Ukraine border with a legal degree of annexation. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/698 "2022-11-21T14:04:50Z")
Special report on milbloggers. Putin is allowing their voice to be heard. They’ve gained a quasi-official but independent position in Russia. > **[Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-november-20)** > > ISW is publishing an abbreviated campaign update today, November 20. This report discusses the rising influence of the milblogger (military correspondent or voenkor) community in Russia despite its increasingly critical commentary on the conduct of... ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/699 "2022-11-21T14:19:39Z")
My read on this is the Kremlin is looking at the composition of the target audiences. Older demographics rely primarily on tradition radio and television media for their information where the state has total control, whereas younger folks are much more likely to get their info online. The Kremlin probably figures most of these folks already have VPNs and have considerable exposure to reporting from the West. Having a robust milblogger presence with hyper nationalist orientation provides at least some means to color the dialogue a bit more favorably (ie. they may be critical of the way the war is being conducted, but not the with premise of the Righteousness of the Russian cause) ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/700 "2022-11-21T14:22:05Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > It may well be a coincidence. The Ukrainians don’t even have to take credit for it or acknowledge it. Just let the idea prey on Russian minds, as @gnoitall mentioned. I have an idea for a “Hogan’s Heroes” type sitcom set during the Ukrainian war. It follows a team of Ukrainian commandos, as they travel around Russia. Every week, they get orders to blow up something, and every week, the thing ends up blowing up just before they get there, due to Russian incompetence. The team is hailed as heroes throughout Ukraine, and everyone thinks their constant attempts to explain that they haven’t actually done anything is just false modesty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=36)