# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/881 "2022-12-02T18:29:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > Expenditure of munitions stockpiles, the impact of western sanctions, the loss of expensive air and armor assets, all mean that the war is bleeding out Russia. > > Do you remember ‘Star Wars’, Reagan’s ‘impenetrable sheild’ against Soviet missiles? It was a bluff, but it forced the Soviets to spend so much money trying to come up with countermeasures that it helped cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. IIRC, it was the _prospect_ of having to compete on a high-tech level they couldn’t hope to match that forced an already troubled USSR to reconsider their strategic position. SALT II for example, which lowered the offensive capability the Soviet Union had to spend to maintain and the USA capability they would have to try to defend against. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/882 "2022-12-02T19:00:50Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What range would Team Ukr need to be in, in order to even functionally do this? They’re in range - the front is in the Donetsk exurbs, maybe ~20ish km from the city proper and a more modern BM-21 Grad can hit out to maybe 40. Unlike Luhansk (the city), Donetsk (the city) has always been close to the front since 2014. There have been sporadic news reports about Ukrainian artillery/rocket strikes in Donetsk city, including charges of hits on civilian areas like markets, more or less since the war started. This isn’t a novel development (the claims aren’t novel, anyway). ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/883 "2022-12-02T19:00:53Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I’m imagining a Ukrainian mother of a new baby: She needs water to mix infant formula every 3 hours, and electricity to sterilize the bottles. When she talks to the baby’s grandparents, what does she tell them? That she wants to keep fighting so that the baby grows up in a free and independent Ukraine? Or that she is at her personal breaking point of no sleep, no heating, no way to keep her baby healthy, and no hope for the future? > I hope she is braver than I would be. Sure, but those aren’t the choices this hypothetical Ukrainian mother faces. Her alternative scenario isn’t keep fighting vs. having a peaceful existence with plenty of the necessities under Putin as long as she salutes the right flag, sings the Russian national anthem, etc. Her alternative to continuing the fight is getting raped and killed by a Wagnerite or Kadyrovite, and having her baby shipped off to Siberia or some other place deep inside Russia to be raised by a Russian family. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/884 "2022-12-02T19:03:09Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > IOW, it presumes that Russia’s strategic depth is so huge that it cannot be exhausted, like the WW2 Red Army. Those were soldiers fighting invaders. The Russian soldiers in this war ARE the invaders and are willing to surrender in considerable numbers. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/885 "2022-12-02T19:04:47Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Her alternative to continuing the fight is getting raped and killed by a Wagnerite or Kadyrovite, and having her baby shipped off to Siberia or some other place deep inside Russia to be raised by a Russian family. Maybe. But the tenuous hope that it might not be that way becomes more and more attractive the longer the very real and immediate deprivations continue. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/886 "2022-12-02T19:30:45Z")
If history is any guide, people can endure about four years of deprivation before hopelessness sets in. We aren’t even at the one-year mark yet. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/887 "2022-12-02T19:47:15Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I’m imagining Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/888 "2022-12-02T19:56:57Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > There have been sporadic news reports about Ukrainian artillery/rocket strikes in Donetsk city, including charges of hits on civilian areas like markets, more or less since the war started. This isn’t a novel development (the claims aren’t novel, anyway) Collateral damage will occur. Ukrainian doesn’t have much choice. Shelling is required to take Donetsk. The Russians are well known for using schools and other public buildings for headquarters. They are storing equipment and supplies at a Nuclear power plant. I would hope Ukraine avoids directly shelling civilians. But, some shells will hit those buildings. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/889 "2022-12-02T20:03:10Z")
We’ve had a few days of heavy snow and wind (and more to come today) here in the Pacific Northwest which caused widespread power outages. Crews worked nonstop through the night, in snow and wind, restoring power to thousands of people. I’m just imagining people in Ukraine, trying to fix power grids while Russia is bombing the hell out of them. It’s heartbreaking and it’s all for nothing. Wars from 100 years ago are barely even remembered. Alliances change with each one. What a colossal waste of lives on all sides. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/890 "2022-12-02T20:14:34Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I’m imagining a Ukrainian mother of a new baby: She needs water to mix infant formula every 3 hours, and electricity to sterilize the bottles. As somebody who moved from accommodated euroṕe to a 2nd world country (a country on par with Ukr in terms of development) I always get a “what-just-happened?” moment when I read those kinds of posts … It shows me how far off-track our society have come in some circles… **(the answer to your insurmountable baby feeding problem is built into any woman’s anatomy) …** ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/891 "2022-12-02T20:20:34Z")
Well, not quite any woman. Some women can’t produce milk, or can’t produce enough milk, or can’t produce safe milk. I agree, however, that ‘put your trust in a Russian regime being any better’ doesn’t look like anywhere near a safe bet. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/892 "2022-12-02T20:21:29Z")
And the concept of nurse maids ellude them when they consider other options. Having another woman nurse your child would shock many people and perhaps rightly so. Still its an option. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/893 "2022-12-02T20:26:19Z")
Why would it be rightly so? Wet nurses are indeed the traditional solution; and, while they were often exploited, they don’t need to be. While some women can’t produce enough milk for one baby, others can easily produce enough milk for two; and some can keep producing milk after their own child no longer needs it. However, finding a wet nurse in a war zone, from which many women have evacuated and in which a lot of remaining women probably have been trying not to get pregnant since early last spring, might not be easy. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/894 "2022-12-02T20:29:18Z")
Some (many?) first world mothers today are overly very protective of what goes into their children, thats all I am saying. It opens up possibilities many would rather not consider or make them shutter to think of. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/895 "2022-12-02T21:28:48Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > (the answer to your insurmountable baby feeding problem is built into any woman’s anatomy) … In a thread about war,let’s not get sidetracked by anatomy. The point in my example of a mother and baby is to ask how average Ukrainian citizens are dealing with the stress, and how long they can keep it up. Which is why I asked if anybody knows what kinds of personal reactions are being posted on Ukrainian facebook pages to family and friends. So let’s change my example of a mother and baby to any similar issue: Maybe a person caring for elderly parents, or a family with several small children who are traumatized from the shelling and wet the bed every night. I’m asking about average people, with serious personal problems, which make it even harder to be heroic every day. I assume that there are millions of such people–many who have already fled, but many who cannot. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/896 "2022-12-02T21:32:31Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > That may well be the case. But won’t that threat ALWAYS be the case? I mean assume Ukraine pushes Russia entirely out of pre-2014 Ukraine and peace is declared. Isn’t the risk basically the same? Ukraine is always (or at least for some substantial period of time) going to have to watch their back and it is going to be an armed truce. Basically Ukraine is going to have spend heavily on defense for the foreseeable future to guard against another Russian attempt. Right. > [@Broomstick](#): > > People arguing for the Ukrainians to capitulate always seem to forget that millions of Ukrainian civilians have and still are opposing the Russians and are willing to put up with considerable hardship to do so. I am not arguing for Ukraine to _capitulate._🙄Getting a peace settlement is not the same as surrendering. > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Exactly. And some piece of paper labelled “Peace Treaty” isn’t going to get Putin to stop killing them So, then we are back to _1. Putin dies_. The idea is to give Putin a chance to claim Victory so he can save face and stop the war. Look, he was anticipating a roll-over, and now he is losing. Putin has been in charge since 2012, and all he did in those ten years prior is to walk into a contested and revolting Crimea. I assume that if he can get out of this expensive war, and save face, he will. Otherwise, we are back to _1. Putin dies”_. > [@Lumpy](#): > > This is predicated on a crucial assumption: that Russia can, however ineptly, continue to fight at its present level more or less forever; until Ukraine either negotiates/surrenders or is turned into a corpse-strewn field of rubble. IOW, it presumes that Russia’s strategic depth is so huge that it cannot be exhausted, like the WW2 Red Army. So, in a year or two the Russian military is exhausted. Why does Putin give up? He can recruit more men, he can build more stuff. Sure, not to the level of pre-war, but some. Do you think Putin will give up just because his Army is exhausted? If there are no peace talks, the only options are _1. Putin Dies and 2. Ukraine surrenders._ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/897 "2022-12-02T21:47:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I am not arguing for Ukraine to _capitulate._ 🙄Getting a peace settlement is not the same as surrendering. Getting a peace settlement from Putin, before completely neutralizing his military, is the same as surrendering. Because that’s the only terms he’ll accept. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So, in a year or two the Russian military is exhausted. Why does Putin give up? He can recruit more men, he can build more stuff. No, he can’t, because that’s all exhausted. If he could still build more stuff, it wouldn’t be exhaustion yet. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/898 "2022-12-02T22:57:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, in a year or two the Russian military is exhausted. Why does Putin give up? He can recruit more men, he can build more stuff. Sure, not to the level of pre-war, but some. Do you think Putin will give up just because his Army is exhausted? > > If there are no peace talks, the only options are _1. Putin Dies and 2. Ukraine surrenders._ I didn’t mean the Russia army will be exhausted, I meant _Russia_ will be exhausted. As in having burnt through its stockpiled ammunition and lost more than half of its prewar aircraft and armor, it cannot replace them at more than a fraction of current expenditures. Where some weapons systems that required imports of foreign technology are now simply irreplaceable due to sanctions. In short, where Russia is so weakened that the Ukrainians can simply push them out of the disputed territory by main force, and keep them out against any renewed assaults. It wouldn’t matter at that point if Putin was willing to fight forever and could keep some military effort going on a North Korean-level of regimentation indefinitely: the goals of the invasion would be lost. Or to put it another way, what makes you think that Russia can simply outlast Ukraine? This ain’t WW2, where Stalin, Beria and the commissars could terrorize the soldiers and workers to keep going in famine conditions. As I said originally, you seem to be working from the premise that Russia has effectively infinite strategic depth. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/899 "2022-12-02T23:10:14Z")
Putin’s clusterfuck. It’s staggering to consider the Russian and Ukrainian deaths and injuries from this sick old Communist’s ambition. I suggest reading the British (RUSI) pdf report linked in the quote. > **[Russia’s vicious tactics in Ukraine serve only to further expose its weakness](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/02/russia-vicious-tactics-ukraine-further-expose-weakness)** > > Moscow had hoped to easily capture Ukraine – having totally failed, it has resorted to simply destroying it > [@](#): > > Moscow’s current strategy stands in stark contrast to Russia’s initial plan: a shock-and-awe strike on Kyiv and other cities that would let them take over the country and its key infrastructure within weeks. > > “This campaign would not target critical infrastructure such as power stations and railways, because these were vital to Russia’s plans for occupying the country,” said a [report this week](https://static.rusi.org/359-SR-Ukraine-Preliminary-Lessons-Feb-July-2022-web-final.pdf) released by Britain’s Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) thinktank, which revealed details from official orders captured from retreating Russians troops. “The elimination of Ukraine’s political leadership would primarily be a task for Russia’s special services. Another line of effort, allocated to Russia’s special forces and air-assault troops, was to capture Ukraine’s power stations, airfields, water supplies, central bank and parliament.” > > Now, the opposite appears to be true. While Russia’s attacks on power infrastructure have been designed to show strength, coming shortly after it was [forced to retreat](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/09/russians-destroy-dnieper-bridges-to-slow-ukraine-advance-on-kherson) from key towns and cities in Ukraine’s south-east, they nonetheless expose Russia’s clear weakness going into winter. ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/900 "2022-12-03T00:20:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Putin has been in charge since 2012 Putin has been in charge since 1999. His shuffling back and forth between President and Prime Minister has been a constitutional fiction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=46)