# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/901 "2022-12-03T01:00:19Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I hope you are right. But I wonder how true this is, after all the suffering. Yes, the people in Ukraine are suffering. What you seem to forget is that people under Russian occupation _also_ have shortages of food, clean water, fuel, and heat… AND they have to deal with the Russian occupiers taking whatever they want, displacing people out of what shelter there is, putting people into “filtration centers” where they are interrogated, sometimes tortured or even murdered, children are separated from parents and send to be adopted by Russians far away. They will suffer either way. > [@chappachula](#): > > Of 40 million Ukrainians, I’ve seen estimates that 7 million have fled the country, and 14 million others have become refugees within Ukraine. And now, it looks like some 20 million have no electricity or running water. And every day more missiles destroy more electric lines, as Putin tries to bomb them back to the stone age. More like Medieval Age. People lived in Ukraine before there was electrical systems or central heating. I’m not saying it will be a pleasant winter, not at all, but it’s not instant death or impossible to endure. > [@chappachula](#): > > What are they posting on their “friends and family only” pages of social media? You’re being rather generous assuming they have access to social media. You need cell service and electricity for that, you know. I have absolutely no doubt there are a lot of traumatized people in Ukraine right now. > [@chappachula](#): > > I’m imagining a Ukrainian mother of a new baby: She needs water to mix infant formula every 3 hours, and electricity to sterilize the bottles. I can’t speak for any particular woman, but if I were a pregnant woman in Ukraine I’d really, really try to opt for breastfeeding. It has its drawbacks, too, but under current conditions it’s a lot more manageable than formula and bottle feeding. How interesting how you assumed the default was formula. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/902 "2022-12-03T01:06:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > What you seem to forget is that people under Russian occupation _also_ have shortages of food, clean water, fuel, and heat… AND they have to deal with the Russian occupiers taking whatever they want, displacing people out of what shelter there is “We grows a lot of food, but we don’t rightly know what becomes of it. It’s all these ‘gatherers’ and ‘sharers,’ I reckon, going round counting and measuring and taking off to storage. They do more gathering than sharing and we never see most of the stuff again.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/903 "2022-12-03T01:09:08Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > Her alternative to continuing the fight is getting raped and killed by a Wagnerite or Kadyrovite, and having her baby shipped off to Siberia or some other place deep inside Russia to be raised by a Russian family. > > Maybe. But the tenuous hope that it might not be that way becomes more and more attractive the longer the very real and immediate deprivations continue. What? Perhaps you haven’t heard about the dead bodies in backyards and basements and other places, tortured to death by the occupiers? Sure, they’re deprived. But they’re not being slowly murdered on top of it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/904 "2022-12-03T02:01:03Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > However, finding a wet nurse in a war zone, from which many women have evacuated and in which a lot of remaining women probably have been trying not to get pregnant since early last spring, might not be easy. Hence, the willingness of not only Ukraine but also some neighbors to get pregnant women and the mothers of small children out of the the danger zone and support them. Unfortunately, too many of the women left behind were given no choice about avoiding pregnancy - the occupiers raped a lot of women, and some of them became pregnant as a result. Pretty sure there is no access to safe abortion due to simply lack of medical care on all levels. I think too many people don’t consider that part of the equation when going “oh, poor dears, they’re in the cold and dark”. Sure, but if liberated by Ukraine they probably have fewer fears of rape/torture/murder on top of all that. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/905 "2022-12-03T04:11:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Good news: They’ve negotiated. And the result of the negotiations was Russia agreeing that Ukraine would keep Crimea. If negotiations mean anything, then that’s what they mean. That was fast: > **[U.S. Sees Little Prospect for Ukraine Talks With Putin After Biden Offer...](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/us/politics/biden-putin-ukraine-talks.html)** > > The Kremlin reaffirmed a stance that both Washington and Kyiv find unacceptable, and U.S. officials said Mr. Biden’s position had not changed. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/906 "2022-12-03T05:09:47Z")
“1. Putin dies”: This may, just possibly, come to pass in the reasonably near future, if one can believe a report that Putin [slipped and fell on stairs](https://www.newsweek.com/did-putin-fall-down-stairs-soil-himself-what-we-know-1764291) earlier this week, and that he is suffering from various serious medical problems. As far as I can tell, the source cited in this _Newsweek_ article is the only (so far unconfirmed) source for the tumble. Even assuming Putin dies or is otherwise removed from running things, there’s no guarantee that any successor won’t double down on the war, right? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/907 "2022-12-03T05:39:08Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Even assuming Putin dies or is otherwise removed from running things, there’s no guarantee that any successor won’t double down on the war, right? Sadly it seems like most of the people most likely to succeed Putin are if anything actually worse. On the other hand, most of those people have nowhere near the level of support amongst the people that Putin enjoys. The hypothetical worse successor may experience a much greater degree of pushback against future mobilization, for example. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/908 "2022-12-03T06:43:23Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > … most of the people most likely to succeed Putin are if anything actually worse … Which, of course, is one of the reasons Vlad is still with us. Most of his potential assassins get that offing him would be an extremely dangerous move that could very easily backfire and make the situation much worse. We have to hope that if he is soon to demise, it happens in the most bland and unremarkable way imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/909 "2022-12-03T07:29:37Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > “1. Putin dies”: This may, just possibly, come to pass in the reasonably near future, if one can believe a report that Putin [slipped and fell on stairs](https://www.newsweek.com/did-putin-fall-down-stairs-soil-himself-what-we-know-1764291) earlier this week, and that he is suffering from various serious medical problems. Lucky for him that he wasn’t near a window at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/910 "2022-12-03T11:36:39Z")
Maybe it was a practice run. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/911 "2022-12-03T13:48:02Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > That was fast: Yup, so fast that they finished the negotiations decades ago. > [@Gorsnak](#): > > Sadly it seems like most of the people most likely to succeed Putin are if anything actually worse. It’s not Putin’s successor that we have to worry about. It’s his successor’s successor’s successor, many times over. Anyone who had any sort of grip on any of the levers of power fell out a window a long time ago, to make sure that they wouldn’t be a successor. Which means that whoever the nominal successor is, they won’t last long before themselves being toppled. Russia will bumble through a parade of incompetents, until eventually finding someone who somehow managed to hide their competence from Putin. And with how efficient Putin was at eliminating competence, that could take a very long time. Which would be good news for Ukraine, on multiple levels. All it takes is for just one of those successors to blame all of Russia’s troubles on the invasion (which is close to accurate) and call it off, and Ukraine can then join NATO and make it much harder for the next incompetent to re-start the war. And even if none of them do that, a constant churn of incompetent leadership would result in the Russian military working even less effectively than it is now. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/912 "2022-12-03T15:01:57Z")
The new Russian miltary building should be a tempting target for HIMARS. It’s almost too convenient. Seems odd that a new military base would be easily identified by satellite. Ukraine needs to verify it’s not a trap full of civilians. > **[Ukraine war: New images show Russian army facility built in occupied Mariupol](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63846154)** > > Russia captured Mariupol earlier this year, and the images suggest it is consolidating its presence. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/913 "2022-12-03T17:45:48Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > Maybe it was a practice run. Like this one? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/VAeDUYRmmPI/maxresdefault.jpg "The Lord of the Rings - The Death of Denethor (Extended Edition HD)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAeDUYRmmPI&t=110s) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/914 "2022-12-03T17:47:14Z")
Yeah, good point. > [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Even assuming Putin dies or is otherwise removed from running things, there’s no guarantee that any successor won’t double down on the war, right? No guarantee, but this invasion seems some sort of obsession with Putin. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/915 "2022-12-03T20:53:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No guarantee, but this invasion seems some sort of obsession with Putin. It’s not even an invasion anymore. They had no actual plans, so now it has turned into Ukrainian Genocide. That’s all it is about now. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/916 "2022-12-03T22:08:20Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > so now it has turned into Ukrainian Genocide That’s what it was always about. They said from the very beginning that they don’t think there is such a thing as a distinct Ukrainian nationality. Even if Russia had walked right in at the start, and not killed a single person, it would have been a genocide–the destruction of a people. The Russian position has always been that Ukrainians are just confused Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/917 "2022-12-04T01:05:10Z")
2 posts were merged into an existing topic: [World Cup 2022 - discussion, predictions, and thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2022-discussion-predictions-and-thoughts/974476/1136) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/920 "2022-12-04T15:10:21Z")
Is Russia running out of ammo? Avril Haines suggests “yes”. > **[U.S. intel chief says Russia is using up ammunition in Ukraine faster than it...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/europe/us-intel-chief-russia-using-ammo-ukraine-faster-can-replace-rcna59847)** > > Putin has been “surprised” at the lackluster performance of his military, but his political objectives for the war have not changed, the intelligence director said > [@](#): > > Asked how fast Russia was using up ammunition, Haines said: “I don’t think I can give you precise numbers in this forum. But quite quickly. I mean, it’s really pretty extraordinary.” > > She added: “And our own sense is that they are not capable of indigenously producing what they are expending at this stage." > > "So that is going to be a challenge.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2022, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/921 "2022-12-04T17:42:51Z")
Malware is attacking municipal offices and courts in Russia. > Mayors’ offices and courts in Russia are under attack by never-before-seen malware that poses as ransomware but is actually a wiper that permanently destroys data on an infected system, according to security company Kaspersky and the Izvestia news service. > **[Never-before-seen malware is nuking data in Russia’s courts and mayors’ offices](https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/12/never-before-seen-malware-is-nuking-data-in-russias-courts-and-mayors-offices/)** > > CryWiper masquerades as ransomware, but its real purpose is to permanently destroy data. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/922 "2022-12-05T00:01:07Z")
Here’s a very interesting data point to consider: the Kremlin conducted a poll of its citizens on how they feel about the war in Ukraine and over half report they favor peace negotiations now. This is what Meduza has reported: [Make peace, not war The Kremlin’s internal polling shows that more than half of Russians now favor negotiations with Ukraine, while only a quarter want to continue the invasion — Meduza](https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/11/30/make-peace-not-war) It’s a given that any poll released by the Russian government is basically a work of fiction. The numbers are whatever Putin wants them to be. So what is being signaled here? Putin is growing truly desperate to end the conflict he started as quickly as possible. The “poll” is an attempt in diplomatic-speak to convey to the West that he’s crying uncle and is prepared to make concessions, just to keep something - anything - enough to declare ‘victory’ before either the Russian economy starts to implode next year, or Russian forces experience a morale collapse. Many commentators have speculated that Putin has been fed a rose-colored picture throughout this war, but I’m convinced Putin is no fool when it comes to politics and realizes, as do his generals, that his forces are losing and will continue to lose as the war progresses, no matter how many ill equipped and ill-trained soldiers they can throw on the field. I believe that the war must ultimately end in some sort of diplomatic agreement, but only after one side or the other prevails on the battlefield. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=47)