# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/963 "2022-12-06T00:38:07Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Not sure I believe that. Temps have been ranging between 0 and -10C in most of Ukraine, which just isn’t very cold, and unlikely to be cold enough to cause issues with brittle plastics etc. The article says that the problem is “frost”, but doesn’t mention brittleness. Could that mean that frost build-up on the wings or on the electronics undercuts their effectiveness? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/964 "2022-12-06T00:40:17Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > ProtivoVozdushnoy Oborony, meaning Anti-air Defense Troops. Apparently air defense is an independent branch in the Russian Armed Forces. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/965 "2022-12-06T00:40:34Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Apparently air defense is an independent branch in the Russian Armed Forces. Was. It was independent under the Soviets, but no longer. It is now defunct as separate branch. It was folded into the Russian air force by Yeltsin in 1997-1998, when the military was undergoing a drastic downsizing. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/966 "2022-12-06T00:54:39Z")
I can’t believe the first Google hit lied to me. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/967 "2022-12-06T01:00:47Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Not sure I believe that. Temps have been ranging between 0 and -10C in most of Ukraine, which just isn’t very cold, and unlikely to be cold enough to cause issues with brittle plastics etc. The Iranians very well might have built them based on “home” conditions, and it appears that most of Iran just doesn’t get very cold. > **[Climate of the World: Iran | weatheronline.co.uk](https://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/climate/Iran.htm)** > > Iran has a hot, dry climate characterized by long, hot, dry summers and short, cool winters. The climate is influenced by Iran's location between the subtropical ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/968 "2022-12-06T01:31:47Z")
Maybe it never occurred to them that they’d be personally using them in a cold climate but, if true, that is incredibly poor practice. I worked a lot on new product development and testing. We tested everything for combinations of extremes in temperature and humidity (among many other things). I find it hard to believe that they didn’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/969 "2022-12-06T01:43:52Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I find it hard to believe that they didn’t do that. I believe it. They were expecting their customers to be other Middle Eastern nations. Who ever thought they’d be selling to the _Russians_, of all people? That’s like finding a snow mobile market in Tonga. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/970 "2022-12-06T01:56:40Z")
We tested things to extremes that aren’t going to ever happen on Earth. It’s standard practice in manufacturing engineering. You do that to learn where it breaks. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/971 "2022-12-06T02:04:41Z")
> **[The US Air Force can create ice storms and sandstorms inside this 'torture...](https://www.businessinsider.com/air-force-mckinley-climatic-lab-torture-chamber-indoor-blizzards-extreme-weather-2017-7)** > > At the McKinley Climatic Lab in Florida, the Air Force tests the durability of aircraft by creating extreme weather conditions indoors. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/972 "2022-12-06T02:43:05Z")
Hitting Russian bombers is what Ukraine needs to do. These are not replaceable any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/973 "2022-12-06T03:02:25Z")
Eh, ordinary aircraft, like every airliner everywhere use, can’t handle freezing temperatures on their own. They need de-icing facilities. I can see Iran not bothering to include that in their shipments, on the assumption that their buyer would have their own de-icing equipment. Which Russia probably has, on paper. Just like all of the other military assets they have on paper. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/974 "2022-12-06T03:37:50Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > We tested everything for combinations of extremes in temperature and humidity (among many other things). I find it hard to believe that they didn’t do that. While I have no doubt there are parts of Iran that get beyond frigid, do they get to Ukraine-in-December-and-into-winter levels of cold at relevant altitudes and other conditions (for example, even if it gets just as cold in the mountains, such conditions might have other significant differences that would diminish the value of testing)? I wouldn’t presume that a regional power would test anything beyond its own immediate sphere of influence. Because there would presumably be no need to, because it would cost money to do so, because any changes to function in extraterritorial extremes would likewise cost even more money (and for what benefit?), and because it simply might not be feasible to. Where were Iranian developers going to go to perform testing for Ukraine-in-winter-like conditions? And with what strings attached from whatever host regime? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/975 "2022-12-06T04:04:27Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > do they get to Ukraine-in-December-and-into-winter levels of cold Most of Ukraine doesn’t get very cold. The conditions along the front to date have been hovering around freezing with a few forays to -10 or so. Ground is barely frozen. Ukrainian winters are not Moscow winters, which are themselves not arctic winters. Average temps in Kyiv in January are high -1 low -7, and a degree or two higher in Dec and Feb. Granted, record lows are into what even we western Canadians describe as fucking cold (all-time low in Kyiv is -40), but that’s rare and so far this year there haven’t been any extreme temperatures at all. Possibly because we on this side of the globe have been stealing all the cold air, low of -30 here tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/976 "2022-12-06T04:09:35Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Where were Iranian developers going to go to perform testing for Ukraine-in-winter-like conditions? And with what strings attached from whatever host regime? Can’t you do this in a testing facility? It gets cold as planes fly high. Nothing new there. The issue is on the ground when the plane (or drone) has been idle in freezing temps. Add in snow or freezing rain. ISTM these can all be tested in a facility made to replicate those conditions. We have wind tunnels to test airflow without flying a plane. Why not cold conditions? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/977 "2022-12-06T04:17:45Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > all-time low in Kyiv is -40 Celcius, or Fahrenheit? ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/978 "2022-12-06T04:31:23Z")
Yes!! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/979 "2022-12-06T04:39:13Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And Russia responds to an attack on it’s military planes by… launching missiles against Ukrainian civilians. All they can hit, since civilians don’t shoot back. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/980 "2022-12-06T06:37:36Z")
On the general topic of “how cold does it ever get in Iran?” my Tehran-born wife would be angry with me if I did not point out that Iran is a very large country with a wide variety of terrain, geography, and climate, including some of the best ski resorts in the region. This, for example, is Dizin. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Dizin%2C_Iran.jpeg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Dizin%2C_Iran.jpeg) Now whether the thinner air of higher-altitude drone testing might counterbalance the value of cold-weather flight, I don’t know. But there’s certainly the opportunity to test-fly drones in snowy conditions. More discussion on Iranian climate would be a hijack, I think, so if anyone wants to continue we should carve it off. But for now, let’s just stipulate that Iran is not wall-to-wall desert. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/981 "2022-12-06T07:37:13Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Most of Ukraine doesn’t get very cold. The conditions along the front to date have been hovering around freezing with a few forays to -10 or so. Ground is barely frozen. To someone in the Middle East, that still sounds pretty damn cold. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/982 "2022-12-06T12:58:15Z")
With insufficient clothing, and possibly being pretty stationary, you’ll end up shivering uncontrollably, with marked loss of faculties, within hours. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=50)