# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1124 "2022-12-13T15:48:14Z")
Suchomimus posted a segment on that bridge this morning. [Ukraine Targets Bridge Near Melitopol – Likely Partisan Activity @UNITED24media - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWQhpROFCj8) ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1125 "2022-12-13T15:53:26Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > This is a interesting development. Melitopol was a very bad defeat for Ukraine last spring. That’s good news. The Zaporizhzhia to Melitopol axis seems to be key right now. I’m surprised Russia isn’t doing more to reinforce that area. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1126 "2022-12-13T16:10:37Z")
Any ideas why NATO is refusing Patriot Missile Defense for Ukraine? Germany gave one to Poland. Poland offered it to Ukraine and Germany refused the deal. The US won’t provide them? It seems unbelievable we’re allowing the total destruction of the Ukraine power grid. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1127 "2022-12-13T17:29:18Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Any ideas why NATO is refusing Patriot Missile Defense for Ukraine? [https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/13/politics/us-patriot-missile-defense-system-ukraine/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/13/politics/us-patriot-missile-defense-system-ukraine/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1128 "2022-12-13T17:38:47Z")
Biden reads the Straight Dope! ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1129 "2022-12-13T18:23:30Z")
Dumb question: Are the Wagner units elite or just mercenaries? I realize they are experienced, but do they get elite training like the US Marines or Special Forces? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1130 "2022-12-13T18:40:40Z")
I suspect it varies widely. Certainly the prisoners they’re recruiting are getting pretty minimal training prior to being used in suicidal frontal assaults on Bahkmut. I would imagine given their history of fighting in Africa and the Middle East that they have some very experienced units. That said: > **[That Time US Forces Tore Hundreds of Russian Wagner Group Mercenaries to...](https://www.coffeeordie.com/wagner-group-syria-khasham)** > > In the 2018 Battle of Khasham, US forces annihilated hundreds of Syrian soldiers and mercenaries from Russia's Wagner Group. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1131 "2022-12-13T18:42:55Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > Dumb question: Are the Wagner units elite or just mercenaries? I realize they are experienced, but do they get elite training like the US Marines or Special Forces? This isn’t a dumb question, it’s actually a good one. Historically, the mercenary group was comprised of combat veterans. More recently the almost human wave attacks Wagner has been leading near Bakhmut have been comprised largely of individuals recruited from Russian prisons who were offered amnesty in exchange for 6 months service. I’m sure Wagner still has many professionals within their ranks but they’re not the ones being used for cannon fodder. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1132 "2022-12-13T18:54:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Any ideas why NATO is refusing Patriot Missile Defense for Ukraine? > > Germany gave one to Poland. Poland offered it to Ukraine and Germany refused the deal. The US won’t provide them? > > It seems unbelievable we’re allowing the total destruction of the Ukraine power grid. The stated objection by Germany was that the Patriots were part of the NATO integrated air defense system. They could operate in Poland that way, but not in Ukraine because that would mean NATO does in fact take part in the Ukraine war. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1133 "2022-12-13T21:51:42Z")
Thank you Mops. Glad to hear the US is finally going to send Patriots. Ukraine is so large they will have to pick what’s most important to protect. Kiev and Odessa seem obvious but the grid is all over the country. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1134 "2022-12-14T02:26:50Z")
Ukrainian tank destroys Russian tank: > ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1135 "2022-12-14T02:35:26Z")
Putin finally has a victory to show off - he’s been named Politifact’s Liar of the Year. > **[PolitiFact - Lie of the Year 2022: Putin’s lies to wage war and conceal...](https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/dec/13/lie-of-the-year-2022-putins-lies-to-wage-war-and-o/)** > > It was 6 a.m. Moscow time on Feb. 24 when Russian President Vladimir Putin announced his "special military operatio ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1136 "2022-12-15T11:10:18Z")
Mostly ex Russian Military. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1137 "2022-12-15T12:35:05Z")
But are they ex-spetsnaz or ex-mess cooks? Or are they both? I think the question is, what is their level of training compared to the regular Russian military? ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1138 "2022-12-15T13:41:12Z")
As I understand it, Wagner has - up until the Ukraine conflict - focused on hiring competent combat infantry veterans. Not necessarily special forces, but certainly not ex-cooks unless those ex-cooks were handy with an assault rifle too. The exception to these hiring practices has been during the Ukraine conflict, as they’ve received the blessings of the Kremlin to actively recruit from prison populations. These recruits have received little training and are intended only to live long enough to establish contact and keep Ukrainian forces engaged while other better trained and equipped elements conduct more effective combat operations. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1139 "2022-12-15T14:24:32Z")
Boris statement is very important. He pushed hard to support Ukraine after the invasion. > **[Why Crimea is Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s greatest bargaining chip](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/15/why-crimea-is-volodymyr-zelenskiys-greatest-bargaining-chip)** > > As Boris Johnson makes an intervention on the status of the peninsula, will Ukraine really insist on Russia giving it back? > [@](#): > > The statement implies Ukraine would have to accept that the removal of Russian troops from Crimea would not be a precondition for the start of talks. > > In proposing this, in a piece last week in the Wall Street Journal, Johnson was making an admission made in private by many diplomats that a militarily enforced return of the Crimean peninsula – which was annexed by Russia in 2014 in a move rejected by the UN – to full Ukrainian control is fraught with risk. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1140 "2022-12-15T19:09:52Z")
Not ex cooks. But closer to them then Spetsnaz. From what I have read Spetsnaz or Airborne troopers tend to think of these guys with some disdain and generally aren’t a major source of recruitment. I guess for someone with multiple combat tours in the Caucasus and Syria, Wagner would almost be insulting. As an aside I was watching _The Living Daylights_ recently and the character of Brad Whitaker is an awful lot like Wagner group men. > **[Brad Whitaker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Whitaker)** > > Brad Whitaker is a fictional character in the James Bond film The Living Daylights. He was portrayed by American actor Joe Don Baker. Baker also appeared as Jack Wade, Bond's CIA contact, in Pierce Brosnan's first two Bond films, GoldenEye and Tomorrow Never Dies. Steven Rubin describes Whitaker as a "smarmy bad-guy arms trader." > Brad Whitaker is an international black market arms dealer. He is fascinated by war, but has no actual military experience, so he turns to arms dealing to organize his... Ironically the Soviet military characters in the film view him with contempt. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1141 "2022-12-15T19:54:14Z")
I found this difficult to read. But Russia will be making another strong push towards Kiev in the next couple months The Russians have been training with Belarusian forces for months. That’s how combined forces are readied for combat. Long article but very informative. > **[Putin preparing major offensive in new year, Ukraine defence minister warns](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/15/ukraine-says-putin-is-preparing-major-offensive-in-new-year)** > > Defence minister suggests attack could happen by February, but other officials indicate it could come in January > [@](#): > > In an interview with the Guardian, Ukraine’s defence minister, Oleksii Reznikov, said that while [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) was now able to successfully defend itself against Russia’s missile attacks targeting key infrastructure, including the energy grid, evidence was emerging that the Kremlin was preparing a broad new offensive. > > Reznikov’s comments echoed similar remarks [made to the Economist](https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/12/15/a-looming-russian-offensive) this week – including from the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, the head of the armed forces, Gen Valerii Zaluzhnyi, and the chief of ground forces, Col Gen Oleksandr Syrskii. > > The briefings appeared to be part of a broad, coordinated effort to warn against complacency among western allies and highlight the continuing threat Russia poses to Ukraine. > > While Reznikov suggested a new offensive could happen by February, the other senior officials indicated they believed it might come as early as January. > > Referring to Russia’s [partial mobilisation](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/21/putin-announces-partial-mobilisation-in-russia-in-escalation-of-ukraine-war) of about 300,000 soldiers, Reznikov suggested that while half – often after receiving minimal training – were being used to reinforce Moscow’s forces after a series of battlefield setbacks, the remainder were being prepared more thoroughly for future offensives. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1142 "2022-12-16T02:44:47Z")
Looks like another nicotine induced explosion occurred at the [Angarsk Oil Refinery](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11540839/Huge-blast-hits-Russian-oil-refinery-latest-suspicious-explosion.html) which is thousands of miles from the front line. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1143 "2022-12-16T03:13:38Z")
ISW still assesses any major Russian counterattack against Kiev will be unsuccessful. > **[Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-15)** > > Russia may be setting conditions to conduct a new offensive against Ukraine— possibly against Kyiv—in winter 2023. Such an attack is extraordinarily unlikely to succeed. A Russian attack from Belarus is not imminent at this time. Russian President... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=58)