# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1557 "2023-01-05T21:39:37Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The Patriot battery is mobile, right? Not really in the sense that you shoot the missiles and immediately move. The battery has the single powerful radar. Not possible to hide its emissions. There will be a number of erector/launcher/transporter trailers. Those are scattered about and in contact with the engagement control system by cable or radio. When the radar is being moved, there are no launches going on. The **single radar unit** does the detection/identification/tracking and illumination of targets when the missiles are launched to when the target is hit. The Wiki goes into greater detail - number of launchers/missiles per launcher are variable based on the type of missile. > **[MIM-104 Patriot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot)** > > The MIM-104 Patriot is a surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, the primary such system used by the United States Army and several allied states. It is manufactured by the U.S. defense contractor Raytheon and derives its name from the radar component of the weapon system. The AN/MPQ-53 at the heart of the system is known as the "Phased Array Tracking Radar to Intercept on Target", which is a backronym for "Patriot". In 1984, the Patriot system began to replace the Nike Hercules system as the U.S ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1558 "2023-01-06T00:30:38Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Apparently, it’s: > > 20-40 German Marder IFVs > 50 US Bradley M2 IFV > 1 Patriot Battery add in the light recon tanks the french are throwing in… (I don’t know if any numbers were mentioned) … ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1559 "2023-01-06T02:09:27Z")
I’ll be curious to see if/how many tank kills the Bradleys get. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1560 "2023-01-06T03:02:14Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > But targeting infrastructure with the specific goal of causing suffering and death among civilians is a violation of the Geneva Convention. And make no mistake, crippling the power grid, even if done without explosives, will result in civilian deaths when people can’t heat their homes or get groceries or surgery or call for emergency services. That’s simply not true. you can can interrupt power without doing any real damage. The idea would be to trigger a cascade power failure that requires a manual switching to get it back online. It would show Russians what they’re doing to Ukraine without any long term effect. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1561 "2023-01-06T03:15:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s simply not true. you can can interrupt power without doing any real damage. The idea would be to trigger a cascade power failure that requires a manual switching to get it back online. It would show Russians what they’re doing to Ukraine without any long term effect. Even if so, is that the best use of Ukraine’s available military resources? Every missile and drone used for that is one not killing Russian soldiers or materiel; IOW exactly the mistake Russia is making by wasting (in a military sense) their missiles and drones on civilian infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1562 "2023-01-06T03:26:16Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Even if so, is that the best use of Ukraine’s available military resources? Every missile and drone used for that is one not killing Russian soldiers or materiel; IOW exactly the mistake Russia is making by wasting (in a military sense) their missiles and drones on civilian infrastructure. Doesn’t require drones or missiles. It needs people to infiltrate Russia and coordinate their efforts. Ukraine isn’t at war with Russia as much as it’s at war with Putin. If Putin goes down in a revolt then the war should go with him. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1563 "2023-01-06T03:40:01Z")
I don’t think there is an action that Ukraine can take that would (a) cause the Russian people to feel the pain of this war while also (b) not blaming Ukraine for the pain. Certainly nothing that would start a revolt. If they just switched off a power station, Russian state television would broadcast all the babies and old people that died because of it. If Ukraine is going to go to the risk of an operation inside Russia, it should be to disable an ammo dump or similar. Not to drum up Russian civillians ire. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1564 "2023-01-06T03:49:53Z")
Sure, and I expect to see more IFVs sent along as troops continue to get trained. But they’ll have a lot to talk about - the Ukrainian army may have to change some of it’s small unit tactical doctrine to accomodate the Bradleys, it’s not just a question of learning the weapons system technology. In the U.S. model, 50 IFVs would be about enough to outfit a full battalion of mechanized infantry. It would be interesting to know how Ukraine plans to use them - shock troops for an advance, exploitation units once a breakthrough has been made? ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1565 "2023-01-06T03:50:30Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > A lot of heads in Russia may roll. Not Putin. He’s too powerful. Every dictator is too powerful to be overthrown. Until–suddenly–he’s not. Sometimes it’s **very** sudden. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1566 "2023-01-06T03:51:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If Putin goes down in a revolt then the war should go with him. Putin’s at zero risk of a popular anti-war rebellion. Please provide evidence if you think otherwise. The actual risks to Putin are from two directions. First, from various hardliners who want Russia to be _more_ aggressive in the war. These are people like Prigozhin. While Putin cowers in the Kremlin and offers a unilateral Orthodox Christmas ceasefire, Prigozhin visits his Wagner troops on the front lines and delivers an engraved sledgehammer of the sort that Wagner uses to brutally execute deserters. Second, and more remotely, there’s a chance of outright mutiny in the army a la 1917. Putin’s chief challenge is in walking the line between not pushing his strained military resources so far that they mutiny, while still appearing bloodthirsty enough to prevent the hardliners from gaining traction. Attempting to discomfit Russian civilians by attacking electrical infrastructure would actually make Putin’s position _less_ uncomfortable. By creating extra grassroots anger against Ukraine, it would make a mutiny less likely because the Russian troops would feel more like they were fighting on behalf of their family back home, rather than just being sacrificial pawns for Putin’s ambition. That would give Putin additional space maneuver. Ukraine’s offensive resources are best reserved to strike military targets only. If the Russian populace doesn’t feel under threat, it makes the pain and suffering of the poor sods on the front lines seem all the more pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1567 "2023-01-06T05:02:51Z")
Here’s a list of vehicles/heavy weaponry donated to Ukraine: > **[Answering The Call: Heavy Weaponry Supplied To Ukraine](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html)** > > By Joost Oliemans and Stijn Mitzer   The following list attempts to keep track of heavy military equipment delivered or pledged to Ukraine d... ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1568 "2023-01-06T10:03:19Z")
Where do the Ukrainians get the fuel for their vehicles? Do they have large reserves? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1569 "2023-01-06T14:20:03Z")
The way to “make the Russian people feel the pain” is for Ukraine to just keep on doing what they’re doing, kicking the butts of Russian soldiers every chance they get. Suffering of the Russian soldiers is likely to be blamed on Putin, not on Ukraine, because of course Ukraine is hitting the soldiers whenever they can, but the reason they’re succeeding so much at it is Putin’s incompetence. And the more Putin escalates the war, the more soldiers he throws into the meat grinder, the more ordinary Russian citizens there are who know some of those soldiers personally. This war does have the potential to destroy Russia, but it won’t be Ukraine’s doing. If Russia were really worried about it, they’d stop the war, which they could do as soon as they decided to. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1570 "2023-01-06T15:48:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s simply not true. you can can interrupt power without doing any real damage. The idea would be to trigger a cascade power failure that requires a manual switching to get it back online. It would show Russians what they’re doing to Ukraine without any long term effect. So you’re confident that exposing the Russian populace to a minor inconvenience will change their attitude about the war? “…gosh, just imagine…those poor Ukrainians can’t check their email for _days_…we must stop this war.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1571 "2023-01-06T16:04:29Z")
---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1572 "2023-01-06T16:04:34Z")
# MODNOTE: Hopefully getting everyone’s attention. Enough with the side issue conjecture about hitting the Russian power distribution system. This is not breaking news and has gone on too long. I thought it would die off on its own. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1573 "2023-01-06T16:15:14Z")
This topic was automatically opened after 10 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1574 "2023-01-06T17:50:30Z")
> [@SunUp](#): > > It would be interesting to know how Ukraine plans to use them - shock troops for an advance, exploitation units once a breakthrough has been made? Based on the successful ‘thunder runs’ they executed during the Kharkiv offensive, my guess is they’d like to use them as exploitation units. But merely having these better quality IFV’s will open new tactical and maybe even operational options for them ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1575 "2023-01-06T18:41:40Z")
I remember the Bradley’s had a lot of problems in Iraq. The floors were thin and vulnerable to IED’s. Sand clogged the engine. IIRC was it the Bradley’s that would turn over? 60 Minutes did a piece about vehicles flipping over on turns. It may have been a different vehicle. I remember a news piece about a base in Iraq that had a full time shop upgrading the Bradley armor. They were getting hammered by IED’s. I hope the Bradley’s sent to Ukraine has been improved. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1576 "2023-01-06T18:54:09Z")
I haven’t really read much about Russian IEDs, and I doubt Ukrainian Bradleys will have much of a problem with sand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=79)