# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/141 "2022-11-01T21:50:44Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > This time they charged Wikipedia _in Russian court_. What gives Russia the legal standing to do that? The fact that it’s in Russian court is what gives Russia the legal standing. Their country, their laws. They want to say their courts have standing, they can do that. Which still doesn’t do anything for their ability to enforce whatever judgement they make, of course. It might be worth some propaganda value on the home front, but beyond that, it’s a completely empty gesture. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/142 "2022-11-01T22:02:01Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > This time they charged Wikipedia _in Russian court_. What gives Russia the legal standing to do that? AFAIK Wikipedia doesn’t operate in Russia? It’s my understanding their content is offered in Russian and many other languages. The quote you gave from the Guardian says that it’s “Wiki **m** edia” that was charged. That’s the umbrella group that provides the servers and administrative support for all the various language versions of Wikipedia, so that would include Russian Wikipedia, as well as English Wikipedia, to the extent it can be accessed in Russia today. Carrying on business by offering one’s services in a country is a traditionally recognised basis for a court to assume jurisdiction, and it also depends on the laws enacted in that country. However, even if the Russian courts do have jurisdiction over the Wikimedia Foundation under Russian law, that doesn’t mean that the judgment of the Russian courts will be enforced in the US, where Wikimedia is headquartered. There’s several factors which a US court will look at to determine if it will enforce a judgment from courts in another country as set out in the Wikipedia article (yeah, I know 😉 ): > **[Enforcement of foreign judgments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement_of_foreign_judgments)** > > In law, the enforcement of foreign judgments is the recognition and enforcement in one jurisdiction of judgments rendered in another ("foreign") jurisdiction. Foreign judgments may be recognized based on bilateral or multilateral treaties or understandings, or unilaterally without an express international agreement. > The "recognition" of a foreign judgment occurs when the court of one country or jurisdiction accepts a judicial decision made by the courts of another "foreign" country or jurisdicti... > [@](#): > > A state may not enforce a foreign-country judgment in the following cases: > > - **The judgment was not rendered by an impartial tribunal under procedures compatible with the requirements of due process of law;** > - **The foreign court did not have personal jurisdiction over the defendant;** > - The foreign court did not have jurisdiction over the subject matter; > - The defendant did not receive notice of the proceedings in sufficient time to enable him to defend; > - The judgment was obtained by fraud; > - **The judgment is repugnant to the public policy of the state where enforcement is sought;** > - The judgment conflicts with another final and conclusive judgment; > - The proceeding in the foreign court was contrary to an agreement between the parties under which the dispute was to be settled; > - In the case of jurisdiction based only on personal service, the foreign court was an [inconvenient forum](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Inconvenient_forum&action=edit&redlink=1) for the trial; > - The judgment seeks to [enforce the revenue and taxation laws of a foreign jurisdiction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_foreign_revenue_enforcement); > - The judgement was obtained through an illegal transaction; > - The judgement is not conclusive. I"ve put in **bold** the ones that I would guess Wikimedia would likely be able to rely on. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/143 "2022-11-01T22:12:44Z")
> [@txtumbleweed](#): > > But if they are sending individual replacements out to units with different weapon calibers it will be a nightmare getting the right mix of ammo forward. Imagine each combat unit having a random mix of guys shooting 5.45 and others shooting 7.62. Will a unit need 90% 5.45 and 10% 7.62 or a 50/50 mix or what? The Russian supply system seems to have a hard enough time pushing supplies forward. Easy to see units losing combat effectiveness because they don’t have the right mix of ammo to keep all the guys in a unit with a full load out for their personal arms. You’re thinking about this all wrong. By issuing differently calibered weapons to conscripts, they are effectively creating a logistical problem for the _Ukrainian_ military once those conscripts are either killed or captured and their arms end up in Ukrainian hands. Then the _Ukrainians_ will have to figure out how to accomplish the Herculean task of delivering _two different types_ of small arms ammunition to front-line units. Unfortunately, the Russians seem not to have considered that any marginally competent military logistics organization would be able to supply two different kinds of ammunition as a matter of routine. The US military, for instance, while relying primarily on 5.56 mm rounds for assault rifles and light machine guns also still uses 7.62 mm ammunition for medium machine guns like the M240. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/144 "2022-11-01T22:35:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > However, even if the Russian courts do have jurisdiction over the Wikimedia Foundation under Russian law, that doesn’t mean that the judgment of the Russian courts will be enforced in the US, where Wikimedia is headquartered. Thank you for clearing this up. I’ve heard parts of Wikipedia are blocked in Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/145 "2022-11-01T22:41:06Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Unfortunately, the Russians seem not to have considered that any marginally competent military logistics organization would be able to supply two different kinds of ammunition as a matter of routine. And in the worst case, the Ukrainians always have the option of just scrapping whatever incompatible equipment they capture. They might or might not actually do that, but it’s an option. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/146 "2022-11-01T22:49:43Z")
> [@txtumbleweed](#): > > But if they are sending individual replacements out to units with different weapon calibers it will be a nightmare getting the right mix of ammo forward. You are assuming that they even have ammo for these old weapons, or that they will even bother to try to get it to the front line troops. I think these poorly trained and armed Russian conscripts are just meant to be bullet catchers to try to wear the Ukranian army down. Putin does not care if a million of his citizens are killed. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/147 "2022-11-01T22:50:35Z")
New changes in drone tactics effect navies all over the world. > **[Could Ukraine’s drone attack on Russian ships herald a new type of warfare?](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/01/could-ukraines-drone-attack-on-russian-ships-herald-a-new-type-of-warfare)** > > Use of boat drone appeared to demonstrate how effective these nimble and relatively cheap weapons can be ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/148 "2022-11-01T23:03:59Z")
This hyped up buzz about the naval drones “changing naval warfare” makes me laugh. They’re tactically not much different that the fire boats that were used in the age of fighting sail. It’s an old tactic, not a new one. ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/149 "2022-11-01T23:10:35Z")
I wasn’t thinking so much of delivering two different calibers to the lines. Most militaries, even the Russians, deal with that on a regular basis with success. But those units are all standardized. Each is nominally equipped with the same weapons and likely consuming similar amounts of ammo. Maybe it’s 100 guys using 5.45 and 8 guys shooting 7.62 as needing standard unit load. In a worse case, if you can’t get exact usage, it’s fairly easy to tell driver that each time he meets an infantry unit, drop off 10 boxes of 5.56 and 8 boxes of 7.62. The way the Russians seem to be setting up, they’ll need great communication and effective logistics to get the right mix of calibers out to the units. Otherwise units with lots of conscripts will be trying to figure out how to make 5.45 fit a 7.62 chamber. I would not be surprised if Putin has deliberately ill-equipped the conscripts. Donetsk to Moscow isn’t terribly much further than Donetsk to Kyiv, and the looting opportunities in Moscow likely better. ---
**Author:** ![Kelevra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/97f17d/32.png) [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/150 "2022-11-01T23:26:46Z")
ISW has a special section on partisan attacks. [https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/interactive-map-and-assessment-verified-ukrainian-partisan-attacks-against-russian](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/interactive-map-and-assessment-verified-ukrainian-partisan-attacks-against-russian) **Key Takeaway:** Effective Ukrainian partisan attacks are forcing the Kremlin to divert resources away from frontline operations to help secure rear areas, degrading Russia’s ability to defend against ongoing Ukrainian counteroffensives, let alone conduct their own offensive operations. Poor Russian operational security has enabled Ukrainian partisan attacks. Russia’s increasing manpower shortages are likely degrading Russian forces’ ability to effectively secure Russian rear areas against partisan attacks and simultaneously defend against Ukrainian counteroffensives. The Kremlin still has not effectively countered Ukraine’s organized partisan movement and is unlikely to have the capabilities to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/151 "2022-11-01T23:29:31Z")
What exactly is the difference between an “explosive drone boat” and a torpedo? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/152 "2022-11-01T23:32:45Z")
That was my thought. The only difference is just range as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/153 "2022-11-01T23:35:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What exactly is the difference between an “explosive drone boat” and a torpedo? The guidance system. A drone is guided by an outside agent, while a missile or torpedo is self-guided. Common parlance has left that distinction behind, so it’s hardly worth correcting anymore. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/154 "2022-11-01T23:37:08Z")
Remote human guidance. And cost. I expect a self-guiding torpedo of comparable combat value to be a lot more expensive, as well as needing dedicated launch systems (on warships or aircraft). ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/155 "2022-11-02T00:30:00Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > They’re tactically not much different that the fire boats that were used in the age of fighting sail. It’s an old tactic, not a new one. Same thing was said when torpedo boats started being used. > The introduction of fast torpedo boats in the late 19th century was a serious concern to the era’s naval strategists, introducing the concept of [tactical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactic_(method)) [asymmetric warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetrical_warfare). In response, navies operating large ships introduced firstly batteries of small-calibre quick-firing guns on board large warships for ‘anti-torpedo’ defence, before developing small but seaworthy ships, mounting light [quick-firing guns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick-firing_gun), to accompany the fleet and counter torpedo boats. These small ships, which came to be called “[torpedo boat destroyers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer)” (and later simply “destroyers”), initially were largely defensive, primarily meeting the torpedo boat threat with their own guns outside of the range at which battleships would be vulnerable. > **[Torpedo boat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_boat)** > > A torpedo boat is a relatively small and fast naval ship designed to carry torpedoes into battle. The first designs were steam-powered craft dedicated to ramming enemy ships with explosive spar torpedoes. Later evolutions launched variants of self-propelled Whitehead torpedoes. > These were inshore craft created to counter both the threat of battleships and other slow and heavily armed ships by using speed, agility, and powerful torpedoes, and the overwhelming expense of building a like number of... ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/156 "2022-11-02T01:42:03Z")
A torpedo is way more effective then a drone of equivalent explosive load because it delivers its explosion under water. Being surrounded by water has an effect similar to a shaped charge that directs the explosion more against the hull than the water. In addition, when the water displaced by the explosion collapses back into the vacated space, it hits the hole in the hull like a second warhead, creating further damage. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/157 "2022-11-02T01:54:32Z")
Near as I can tell, the biggest new thing about these drone boats is that off-the-shelf hardware has advanced to the point where they can be made cheaply and easily, by an underfunded but competent combatant. An individual torpedo might be more effective than an individual drone, but how many drones can you make for the cost of one torpedo? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/158 "2022-11-02T02:10:06Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > needing dedicated launch systems (on warships or aircraft) This was my first thought. That drone boat looks like it could be deployed to any shore of any body of water just by two dudes in a pickup truck. You need fancy launching platforms to launch a torpedo. Certainly more than two dudes in a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/159 "2022-11-02T02:30:09Z")
Or you tow an unpowered torpedo by a drone and the ship gets hit above and below the waterline in the same location at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/160 "2022-11-02T03:00:38Z")
O a downward-angled spar torpedo, like the earliest torpedo boats had. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=9)