# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 83
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1657 "2023-01-12T12:15:35Z")
Let me agree. I’ve posted this before in Putin threads. Some of the long-time Putin watchers I’ve seen (ie, Masha Gessen) have said that he really isn’t that bright, he’s just a thug who knows how the system works. He’s a good fit for Russia, from a “corporate culture” perspective. I don’t recall all the places I’ve seen this said (it was multiple times over the years) but one I’m sure of is “The Putin Files” by Frontline. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1658 "2023-01-12T14:11:28Z")
Wasn’t he the head of the KGB? Not just a member, but actually in charge. Like Bush the first with the CIA. I feel like the head of intelligence agencies is probably pretty smart. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1659 "2023-01-12T14:29:02Z")
No, he was a mid-level bureaucrat stationed in Dresden and was reportedly dissatisfied with the post. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1660 "2023-01-12T14:43:28Z")
Thanks much, that actually makes me feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1661 "2023-01-12T14:52:00Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > No, he was a mid-level bureaucrat stationed in Dresden and was reportedly dissatisfied with the post. I know this is a tangent but it’s a lot more complicated than that. According to Belton, that was itself a cover. Dresden was the organizational center for the Red Army Faction terrorist cells and other far-left extremist groups, precisely because it was considered such a backwater. And Putin was at the center of that. From Belton’s source: _“There was nothing in Dresden, nothing at all, except the radical left. Nobody was watching Dresden, not the Americans, not the West Germans. There was nothing there. Except one thing: these meetings with those comrades.”_ And if we know one thing about Putin, he’s good at the effective use of disruptive resources against the West. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1662 "2023-01-12T14:58:19Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > According to Belton, that was itself a cover. Dresden was the organizational center for the Red Army Faction terrorist cells and other far-left extremist groups, precisely because it was considered such a backwater. I’m not familiar with Belton. And maybe that’s true, but none of the popular press I’ve read has made the claim that Putin was anything more than a nobody to wit: > **[Vladimir Putin's formative German years](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32066222)** > > Anyone who wants to understand Vladimir Putin needs to know what happened to him on a night in Dresden in 1989. The piece is about the impact of the collapsing eastern bloc, but makes several references to his “hum drum role” and “a relatively junior figure, off to one side, but already networking among the elite.” ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1663 "2023-01-12T16:36:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He bet that the West would let him take eastern Ukraine too, but nope. True, but would it have been different if Zelensky had accepted the “ride” offered by the US instead of saying " I need ammunition, not a ride"? How much hinged on that? I ask sincerely as it has some really interesting and inspiring implications ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1664 "2023-01-12T19:02:03Z")
The other difference from 2014, as I understand it, is that Ukraine was not really in a position to contest the seizure of Crimea, but has spent the past 8 years beefing up their military, studying the Russian military and doctrine and planning for the 2022 invasion (even though they hoped it wouldn’t happen). And western nations have assisted Ukraine in that upgrading. That put Ukraine in the position to resist in 2022, in a way that they likely could not have done in 2014. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1665 "2023-01-12T19:50:40Z")
> [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVP4AzuUsAA93OR?format=jpg&name=4096x4096) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVP4AzuUsAA93OR?format=jpg&name=4096x4096) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1666 "2023-01-12T20:01:45Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > the disadvantage is ending eventuallyup like Mussolini, Ghadaffi, Hussein or Ceauscescou Or Hitler. Hmm, how many evil dictators actually got to enjoy a long and happy life or a nice retirement? ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1667 "2023-01-12T20:02:51Z")
Castro. Franco. Chairman Mao. Stalin. Ferdinand Marcos. Kim Jong-il. Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (Shah of Iran). The entire House of Saud. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1668 "2023-01-12T20:34:26Z")
Would add Idi Amim to the list, but yeah, it happens. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1669 "2023-01-12T21:39:45Z")
> Russia’s Ministry of Defense spokesman Igor Konashenkov says Russia has already destroyed 4 Bradley Fighting Vehicles in Ukraine. Which is indeed remarkable in that none have been delivered yet. You can’t really expect them to wait until the Bradley’s actually get there, it makes them look weak and that they can’t project power outside their borders. Wait a second - never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1670 "2023-01-12T21:47:46Z")
Someone’s keeping a tally of donated equipment the Russian MoD has claimed to have destroyed: > ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1671 "2023-01-12T22:33:41Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > Would add Idi Amim to the list, but yeah, it happens. But when it doesn’t happen (see list by AI128 and Dr Deth), the results can be quite painful, as Mussolini and Qaddafi in particular, discovered. There are reports that Putin viewed the video of QAddafi’s killing several times, as well as Cesusecu’s, and is determined that won’t happen to him. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1672 "2023-01-13T00:27:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I hope the Bradley’s sent to Ukraine has been improved. This problem has been addressed. Long time ago now though. Perhaps these are the reinforced ones or not. I’m not in a position to say. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1673 "2023-01-13T00:48:04Z")
I remember my History teacher said weapons used and tested in the Spanish Civil War were improved for WWII. The Bradley got tested and improved in Iraq. I think we’re seeing the same thing with NATO weapons in Ukraine. We’re seeing drones used in new ways to wipe out infrastructure. HIMARS have been incredibly effective. Germany discovered irs Puma APC aren’t reliable. I’d speculate a lot of NATO equipment is getting throughly tested in Ukraine. NATO countries will make improvements as needed. Cite [German military swaps APCs for NATO force after breakdowns - ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-military-swaps-apcs-nato-force-after-breakdowns-95536236) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1674 "2023-01-13T01:12:12Z")
Hope it works out. The Guardian blog > [@](#): > > [Poland](https://www.theguardian.com/world/poland) earlier announced that it plans to transfer 10 **German-made Leopard 2 main battle tanks** to Ukraine, in a move with wide significance. > > Speaking on a visit to Lviv on Wednesday, the Polish president, Andrzej Duda, said: > > > A company of Leopard tanks will be handed over as part of coalition building. We want it to be an international coalition. > > The transfer would require permission from Germany, which Kyiv has been pressing separately to supply Leopard 2s, perhaps suggesting a softening of Germany’s stance on the transfer of main battle tanks after recent contacts between Warsaw and Berlin. ---
**Author:** ![Kelevra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/97f17d/32.png) [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1675 "2023-01-13T03:07:23Z")
I read that Germany is not objecting to the Leopards being transferred. They say what Poland does is their business. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1676 "2023-01-13T09:40:13Z")
There’s an interesting section of that article about Putin’s time in East Germany as a KGB officer as the Iron Curtain falls: > This warning about what can happen when people power becomes dominant was one Putin could now ponder on the long journey home. > > “Their German friends give them a 20-year-old washing machine and with this they drive back to Leningrad,” says Putin biographer and critic Masha Gessen. What is it with Russians and washing machines? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=82) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=84)