# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1717 "2023-01-15T05:30:26Z")
Ah. Well, I would say that unless they are compared to the US alone that France and the UK actually are very capable with regard to force projection overseas. At least compared to most other countries. Obviously the US is number one in that. I do agree that other nations have contributed to NATO. I would say that many NATO members have militaries that are designed to be complimentary to NATO, and that is a good thing. I have a habit of replying to my own posts by accident, please just ignore that ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1718 "2023-01-15T08:32:12Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Another class of vehicle frequently misclassified is the infantry fighting vehicle (IFV). This is stuff like the American Bradley or the Russian BMP. These are also tracked armoured vehicles with main guns mounted in turrets, but in this case the main gun is a mere 30mm autocannon instead of the big 120mm of the main battle tanks. Additionally, these vehicles typically carry 4-6 infantry inside which by doctrine dismount the vehicle prior to engaging. Their armour is again much lighter than a tanks. Way back when Bradleys were first being introduced they were described as battlefield taxis. Yes, mounted with a TOW they can defeat a tank, but slugging it out with tanks is not what they were meant to do. An analogy would be a WWII destroyer vs. a battleship. Yes, being armed with torpedoes a DD can sink a BB but it it gets in a one on one engagement with one, something’s gone terribly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1719 "2023-01-15T15:24:27Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > Odd that an anti-drug howitzer would have Rasta colors on the muzzle. Wonder what it’s loaded with? It looks to me like it starts with a yellow color, changing to orange then bright red then dark red at the tip. More like a flame than Russian colors. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1720 "2023-01-15T15:34:53Z")
And now I see you said Rasta, not Russian. I must need to get my glasses checked 🤣. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1721 "2023-01-15T15:37:49Z")
Definitely a flame job. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1722 "2023-01-15T16:07:19Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > They’re all big green things on treads with shooty bits sticking out the front, but they all have quite different roles. And all of them are frakking useless for fighting in urban areas. There a 19 year old with a RPG is King. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1723 "2023-01-15T16:28:59Z")
If used in the right way, tanks can have an important role in urban combat. > [@](#): > > Few lessons are as prevalent in military history as is the adage that tanks dont perform well in cities. The notion of deliberately committing tanks to urban combat is anathema to most. > > … > > When properly employed, well-trained and well-supported units led by tanks are decisive in urban combat. The reverse also is true. > **[Breaking the Mold: Tanks in the Cities](https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA483540)** > > Few lessons are as prevalent in military history as is the adage that tanks dont perform well in cities. The notion of deliberately committing tanks to urban combat is anathema to most. In Breaking the Mold Tanks in the Cities, Ken Gott disproves... ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1724 "2023-01-15T17:02:35Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > And all of them are frakking useless for fighting in urban areas. There a 19 year old with a RPG is King. If your SPG positioned several km behind the line of contact is threatened by a kid with an RPG, you have problems that go beyond the urban setting of the fighting. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1725 "2023-01-15T17:40:07Z")
Like being stupid enough to let your artillery get close enough without sufficient security forces around! ISTR that the [Stryker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker#/media/File:Stryker_25th_ID_Iraq_DF-SD-05-12693.JPEG) has been the most successful armored vehicle for urban environments, if for no other reason than it is much quieter than a tracked vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1726 "2023-01-15T18:35:45Z")
> **[How Ukraine became a laboratory for Western weapons and battlefield innovation...](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/15/politics/ukraine-russia-war-weapons-lab/index.html)** > > Last fall, as Ukraine won back large swaths of territory in a series of counterattacks, it pounded Russian forces with American-made artillery and rockets. Guiding some of that artillery was a homemade targeting system that Ukraine developed on the... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1727 "2023-01-16T13:18:13Z")
There’s a reason why, in a lot of non-armored-vehicle games, the character who can withstand tremendous amounts of punishment to protect their teammates is called the “tank”. A tank’s main gun is certainly impressive, but its defining feature is being able to survive everything that’s thrown at it. Or at least, that’s supposed to be its defining feature. When farm tractors are defeating your tanks, that’s a sign that you don’t know how to tank. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1728 "2023-01-16T22:59:41Z")
I have a friend in the Nederlands who is making some side money by installing heat pumps in homes because word got around that he had done it himself for his own home. Only makes sense with this war on. I imagine that many people are finding ways around using gas this winter. Oops, not breaking news. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1729 "2023-01-17T04:07:34Z")
Well, in a way it is, since one factor in this conflict is how Europe will face getting through the winter with Russia withholding gas supplies, whether the populations’ resolve to continue supporting Ukraine will weaken under such pressure. That people are finding ways to work around this is good not just for the immediate conflict but also long term as a way to diminish Russia’s power via its control of a natural resource. Wars are fought on home fronts as well as battle lines. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1730 "2023-01-17T04:09:35Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > I imagine that many people are finding ways around using gas this winter. It’s also a good long-term option to help against climate change, so long as the electric grid is slowly switched over to non-fossil fuel sources. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1731 "2023-01-17T16:50:24Z")
Increased prices and smartmeters show how much you are spending each day. These are powerful incentives to find ways of reducing energy consumption. This reduces the scale of the problem from the consumption side. Generation is another problem. It has been solved by reversing pipelines, adding LPG terminal capacity as fast as possible, delaying the scheduled de-commissioning of fossil fuel power stations and making use of interconnectors between national grids for electricity and the increased use of international gas pipelines and increasing to output from existing gas fields and filling all available storage. There is still a lot of work to be done over the next years. This kind of infrastructure normally takes years to change. It has been a remarkable effort. These short term emergency measures and the mild European winter seem to have done the trick. They will feed into a longer term strategy to completely remove the European dependency on Russia as a reliable source of Oil and Gas. It will accelerate the move towards renewables which have the advantage of being locally generated with no risk of some mad dictator switching off the tap. Russia had better start finding alternative customers for their Oil and Gas and find ways of moving it around the world. All the big pipelines and their huge capacity went from Russia to Europe. The capacity to move gas through LPG tankers or other gas pipelines is far less. Building more capacity will be slow, expensive and take many years. Putin has killed the goose that lays golden eggs and destroyed any trust in Russia as a reliable trading partner. He will lose the economic war and eventually run out of money. Modern warfare of this kind is extremely expensive and the stocks of weapons are rapidly depleted. It would be interesting to see an economic projection: how long before Russia runs out of money and missiles? ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1732 "2023-01-17T18:44:32Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Russia had better start finding alternative customers for their Oil and Gas and find ways of moving it around the world. All the big pipelines and their huge capacity went from Russia to Europe. The capacity to move gas through LPG tankers or other gas pipelines is far less. Building more capacity will be slow, expensive and take many years. > > Putin has killed the goose that lays golden eggs and destroyed any trust in Russia as a reliable trading partner. I saw a TLDR video this morning that explained how the price caps the G7 imposed on Russian oil has to the surprise of many actually put a dent in Russian oil revenues. [The G7 Price Cap is Working Surprisingly Well - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU_JGOMaTYo) ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2023, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1733 "2023-01-18T13:04:33Z")
Ukraine’s interior minister died in a helicopter crash just outside Kyiv. > **[Ukraine interior minister, others killed in helicopter crash](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-9ec684edb2af6b7b84e67ab5e984e739)** > > BROVARY, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine's interior minister died Wednesday in a helicopter crash near the capital that killed more than a dozen other people, including children, authorities said. Interior Minister Denys Monastyrskyi, who oversaw Ukraine's... ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2023, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1734 "2023-01-18T13:31:32Z")
I’m sure they’ll investigate the heck out of that crash. I know I would. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1735 "2023-01-18T13:34:22Z")
Yeah, like who takes their kids to school by helicopter in a war zone? Even if it wasn’t shot down its still a not a smart move as military aircraft can be of questionable shape during wartime. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1736 "2023-01-18T13:45:41Z")
I think the kids were on the ground. They died when the helicopter landed on them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=85) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=87)