# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/161 "2022-11-02T03:19:40Z")
I’m not a naval mariner, but it seems to me that the Ukrainian Uncrewed Service Vessels (USV) used in the Sevastopol mission serve in a similar role to manned torpedoes, which were used to attack ships in harbors during WWII, where regular torpedoes might not be suitable. [![](http://rnsubs.co.uk/public/images/articles/chariot/Chariot_Mk1.png) ](http://rnsubs.co.uk/public/images/articles/chariot/Chariot_Mk1.png) > **[Human torpedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_torpedo)** > > Human torpedoes or manned torpedoes are a type of diver propulsion vehicle on which the diver rides, generally in a seated position behind a fairing. They were used as secret naval weapons in World War II. The basic concept is still in use. > The name was commonly used to refer to the weapons that Italy, and later (with a larger version) Britain, deployed in the Mediterranean and used to attack ships in enemy harbors. The human torpedo concept has occasionally been used by recreational divers, a... Here’s a video on the Ukrainian USVs: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/C_tvZufo4hE/maxresdefault.jpg "Ukraine's New Drone Boats That Will Change Naval Warfare, Explained") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_tvZufo4hE) ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/162 "2022-11-02T06:33:57Z")
The torpedo talk reminds me of the book _The Eagle Has Landed_. The German soldiers used to assassinate Churchill are taken from a penal battalion that rode torpedoes with another torpedo slung underneath them. The theory was to release the bottom torpedo and ride to safety on the top one. Didn’t work so well in practice. > **[Neger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neger)** > > The Neger (German for Negro) was a torpedo-carrying craft generally described as a human torpedo which could not submerge, but was difficult to see during night operations. The vessel was used by Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine between 1943 and 1945. The name comes from its constructor, Richard Mohr, whose surname in German also stands for Negro in the racial sense. > The Neger was based on the G7e torpedo and sported a spartan cockpit covered by a perspex dome, where the warhead would have been. It... ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/163 "2022-11-02T08:40:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It’s one thing for Russia to put propaganda out and hope International news will report it. > > This time they charged Wikipedia _in Russian court_. What gives Russia the legal standing to do that? What gave them the legal standing to invade Ukraine and annex its territory? This is about Russia _taking_, about Russia attempting to impose its will on other nations. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/164 "2022-11-02T12:30:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > An individual torpedo might be more effective than an individual drone, but how many drones can you make for the cost of one torpedo? @Hypno-Toad’s explanation was incomplete. The image most people have of torpedoes come from WWII where a sub sneaks up to an unsuspecting ship and fires a salvo which they hope one or a couple will hit. The torpedo hits the hull and punches in a hole which the ship then counters by sealing off compartments and counter flooding the other side if necessary. Battleships could withstand a number of torpedo hits without getting sunk, but aircraft carriers were more vulnerable. When the Japanese battleship Yamato was sunk by American planes, they purposely attacked from one side to maximize the torpedo damage. Attacks by both sides tended to equalize the damage in terms of flooding. Modern torpedoes work by exploding under the keel of the ship, which breaks the keel and destroys the ship’s structural integrity. One shot, one ship sunk. I haven’t found any estimates of the size of the warhead in the Ukraine USV, but I suspect they are much less than the 647 lb (293 kg) in the current US torpedo. The US Navy’s [Mark 48 torpedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_48_torpedo) has both active and passive sonar systems as well as wire guidance. They are expensive, Wiki gives a unit cost of $5.39 million but also reports that Taiwan purchased 18 torpedoes at a cost of $180 million. Other advantage of the Mark 48 is that they run much deeper and have measures to avoid detection by the enemy. You are correct, this amount of money would purchase an insane number of USV. The worry for the US Navy is operating around Iran where they already have hundreds of small boats and USV, and it’s anticipated that they can overwhelm the ship’s defenses. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/165 "2022-11-02T13:16:45Z")
Ukraine faces a very grim winter. Russia’s plan to wipe out the electrical grid with Iranian drones has been quiet effective. I hope NATO has already brought in experts to coordinate the logistics to send generators and making the most efficent use. For example, I would setup a large generator in the lobby of a apartment building. Setup a central kitchen, warming stations and laundry. I couldn’t heat individual apartments. Takes too much fuel. It would require a lot of planning and implemented city by city. It should have been planned months ago. Generators and fuel staged in Poland. > **[Ukraine faces ‘winter humanitarian crisis’ with energy grid on the brink](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/01/ukraine-faces-winter-humanitarian-crisis-with-energy-grid-on-the-brink)** > > Exclusive: Energy boss says ‘virtually all’ non-nuclear power stations hit by Russian attacks > [@](#): > > On Monday, 350,000 homes lost power in Kyiv and 80% of the water supply was disrupted after the attack, although both had been restored on Tuesday. Another 20,000 remained without supply in the Kyiv region, said the governor, Oleksiy Kuleba. > > In Kharkiv, where the main power station was damaged on Monday, Kharkiv hospital number 4 has been running on a reduced voltage – 180W instead of 220W – and there were concerns that this may damage the hospital equipment, said Oleksandr Dukhovsky, the head of paediatric surgery at the hospital. > [@](#): > > Kudrytskyi said it would be possible for Ukraine – which used to be energy self-sufficient before the Russian attacks – to purchase electricity from Europe. But this would only be a partial help because of the damage to the country’s grid, which would make it harder to route electricity across the country, he said. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/166 "2022-11-02T13:17:07Z")
“blackamoor”?! Who on earth wrote that Wikipedia entry? ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/167 "2022-11-02T13:35:20Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I hope NATO has already brought in experts to coordinate the logistics to send generators and making the most efficent use. I don’t know what NATO’s plans are, but a [dozen countries have already stepped forwar](https://babel.ua/en/news/86403-twelve-countries-will-provide-ukraine-with-equipment-to-restore-energy-infrastructure)d to provide direct assistance in restoring and maintaining Ukraine’s grid. Many of the countries coordinating assistance are NATO members. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/168 "2022-11-02T13:57:17Z")
Repairing the grid is the best choice. Provide generators only where quick repairs arent possible I haven’t seen many articles about donations.i did see Japan is helping with transformers. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/169 "2022-11-02T14:20:51Z")
Heh, it looks like since no-one else was paying any attention to Russia saying the grain deal was off, Russia decided it was back on again. > **[Russian U-turn allows grain deal to resume](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63483133)** > > Moscow halted its support, accusing Ukraine of using the Black Sea route to attack Russia's fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/170 "2022-11-02T14:43:07Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I haven’t seen many articles about donations.i did see Japan is helping with transformers. And they would know a thing or two about restoring electrical infrastructure. [![](https://i.imgur.com/zeyO29L.jpeg) ](https://i.imgur.com/zeyO29L.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/171 "2022-11-02T16:42:26Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > “blackamoor”?! > > Who on earth wrote that Wikipedia entry? If you’re comparing historical usage/equivalence, that’s a perfectly valid term. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/172 "2022-11-02T17:41:51Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > blackamoor”?! > > > > Who on earth wrote that Wikipedia entry? > > If you’re comparing historical usage/equivalence, that’s a perfectly valid term. I would disagree. It’s an obnoxious term that doesn’t need to be used in a modern encyclopedia. And in any event, the wikilink was to the ornamental meaning, of statuettes of Black people as decorative objects, typically in a servant position. It may have been that the article was an English version of an equivalent article from the German Wikipedia. I’ve found that in those cases, of articles that rely on articles from other languages, the translation isn’t always accurate or may be a bit tone-deaf in cases. In any event, I’ve fixed it. The article now reads “…whose surname in German also stands for Negro in the racial sense.” Thanks for flagging it, @thorny_locust . ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/173 "2022-11-02T17:53:37Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In any event, I’ve fixed it. The article now reads “…whose surname in German also stands for Negro in the racial sense.” Thanks for flagging it, @thorny_locust . Why not just say that that it translates to Moor? ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/174 "2022-11-02T17:56:17Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > What exactly is the difference between an “explosive drone boat” and a torpedo? > > The guidance system. A drone is guided by an outside agent, while a missile or torpedo is self-guided. Common parlance has left that distinction behind, so it’s hardly worth correcting anymore. isnt there also the difference that an EDB can be “loitering/floating” for hours/days, whereas a torpedo is basically a “underwater rocket” running at (relatively) high speed for a very limited time ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/175 "2022-11-02T18:00:49Z")
Thanks, @Northern_Piper. “Negro” isn’t any longer in common use, of course, but at least it was the polite term when it was in use. @Bootb, the article didn’t seem to me to be a discussion of historical usage of various terms for the human category of “Black”. It was discussing the history of the word for the torpedo, true; but that could easily have been done without using derogatory words. If the point was to explain the connection with the name “Mohr”, using “Moor” would have both been clearer and used a more neutral term. ETA: agreeing with @hajario just above. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/176 "2022-11-02T18:02:25Z")
Because it’s used in that article to explain the name of the torpedo, “Negre”. Using “Moor” would then need another explanation, to make the link between “Moor” to “Negre”. Plus, I don’t know German, so not sure of the exact equivalence of “Mohr”. Paging @Schnitte and @EinsteinsHund ! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/177 "2022-11-02T18:10:07Z")
There’s also the point that “Moor” (at least in English) is more of a term referring to Muslims, not necessarily skin colour, although it certainly has that association (probably because of _Othello_). See the Wikipedia article: > [@](#): > > Moors are not a distinct or [self-defined](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnonym) people.[[1]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-1)The 1911 _[Encyclopædia Britannica](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica)_ observed that the term had “no real ethnological value.”[[2]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-2) Europeans of the [Middle Ages](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) and the [early modern period](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_period)variously applied the name to Arabs and North African Berbers, as well as Muslim Europeans.[[3]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-3) > > The term has also been used in Europe in a broader, somewhat derogatory sense to refer to Muslims in general,[[4]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-Menocal,_Mar%C3%ADa_Rosa_2002_page_241-4) especially those of Arab or Berber descent, whether living in Spain or North Africa.[[5]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-5) Better to use a less ambiguous term, I think. But since this thread isn’t about the best term to use in Wikipedia, I don’t want to post further and start a hijack. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/178 "2022-11-02T18:14:15Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Plus, I don’t know German, so not sure of the exact equivalence of “Mohr”. > > Paging @Schnitte and @EinsteinsHund ! I didn’t follow this thread and couldn’t find the wiki article you’re all referring to, so I have no context, but generally I would agree that “Mohr” in German is equivalent to the English “moor” and shouldn’t be used anymore for any POC, except for when relating to its historical use. There’s a rather current discussion about the renaming of the Berliner street and subway station “Mohrenstraße”. > **[Mohrenstraße](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohrenstra%C3%9Fe)** > > Mohrenstraße is a street in central Berlin. It runs from west to east between Wilhelmstraße and Hausvogteiplatz \[de\], and partially forming the southern edge of Gendarmenmarkt. The Berlin U-Bahn station Mohrenstraße is located at its western end, and is served by the U2. A number of buildings in the street date to the mid-19th century (Gründerzeit) or were reconstructed after World War II, and are protected historic buildings. > In August 2020, the borough assembly of Berlin-Mitte suggested that... ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/179 "2022-11-02T18:15:27Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I didn’t follow this thread and couldn’t find the wiki article you’re all referring to, so I have no context, > **[Neger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neger)** > > Neger is German for Negro. > Neger may also refer to: ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/180 "2022-11-02T18:17:41Z")
I heard yesterday the IRIS-T systems deployed to Ukraine had a 100% shoot down success rate. They need to get more of these systems in place ASAP around their critical civilian infrastructure. [IRIS-T shows 100% success today, more of these systems needed, Air Force says (yahoo.com)](https://news.yahoo.com/iris-t-shows-100-success-151100006.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=10)