# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 92
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1837 "2023-01-23T02:08:02Z")
I still can’t wrap my mind around the German logic of “It’s totally fine to send self-propelled howitzers like Panzerhaubitze to Ukraine, but we can’t send any tanks.” That hair-splitting of “this is a defensive weapon, this is an offensive weapon” is like saying it’s okay to wage war with swords but not with scimitars. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1838 "2023-01-23T03:12:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think that Poland is calling Germany’s bluff here, and I think they’re going to be successful. If Poland does go ahead and ship those tanks off to Ukraine, and then Germany raises a stink about it, it’ll look like Germany is supporting Russia. Germany has already said they [“would not stand in the way”](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/germany-ready-allow-poland-sending-leopard-tanks-ukraine-foreign-minister-annalena-baerbock/amp/) if Poland (or anyone else) provides Leopard tanks to Ukraine. Whether or not Germany sends tanks themselves, there is absolutely no way they will block other countries doing it. The ramifications would be ugly if they did so. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1839 "2023-01-23T03:44:36Z")
Yeah, possibly. And Germany is possibly losing out on a ton of future customers. Germany’s gaining a reputation for not being supportive of Ukraine. That’s somewhat undeserved, but I don’t understand this. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1840 "2023-01-23T03:53:16Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > So, yeah, Canuckistan could buy a lot of tanks, and then sell them on to a third party, but those would be the last tanks we ever buy from them. Meh. If Germany is going to try to dictate how we can use tanks we buy from them, it makes buying tanks from them in the future much less attractive. It’s not like there aren’t alternatives. We can buy Abrams from the States, or Challengers from the UK, or once Poland has their production set up we can buy the K2 (South Korea’s MBT) from them, which could easily be the most cost effective option albeit probably not available for several years. All of those tanks are more or less on par with the Leopard. And let’s just try to imagine Poland telling their customers that they can’t send tanks purchased from them off to fight Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1841 "2023-01-23T07:21:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That hair-splitting of “this is a defensive weapon, this is an offensive weapon” is like saying it’s okay to wage war with swords but not with scimitars. You don’t recognize the historical baggage attached to a modern German tank potentially rolling over the Russian border? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1842 "2023-01-23T07:51:34Z")
I do recognize it but, again, it’s hair-splitting in the scheme of a much bigger war - and, again, hardly much more than the historical baggage of a German-made howitzer shelling Russian troops (which is already happening.) ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1843 "2023-01-23T16:01:11Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > We can buy Abrams from the States The United States will also restrict who you re-export to. Germany’s export control regime is almost identical to the US ITARS control system. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1844 "2023-01-23T22:36:29Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Yeah, possibly. And Germany is possibly losing out on a ton of future customers. > > Germany’s gaining a reputation for not being supportive of Ukraine. That’s somewhat undeserved, but I don’t understand this. I think Germany might have some collective baggage in regards to past sins in the first half of the 20th Century that are coming into play with this. It’s a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1845 "2023-01-24T14:49:08Z")
Have to start somewhere. The Guardian > [@](#): > > ## Ukrainians to train on Leopard 2s in Poland, says minister > > Ukrainian forces will train on Leopard 2 battle tanks in Poland, Ukraine’s defence minister, Oleksii Reznikov, has been quoted as saying, despite allies’ failure to reach an agreement to supply the German-made vehicles to Kyiv. > > Reznikov spoke to Ukrainian-language Voice of America after attending a meeting at the Ramstein US airbase in Germany, where Ukraine’s partners did not take a decision on handing over the tanks. Germany, which makes the Leopard tanks, would have to approve any transfer. > > Reznikov described the training development as a breakthrough, attributing the success to efforts by Poland. > > “We will start with this and then we will move further,” Voice of America quoted him as saying. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1846 "2023-01-24T18:14:16Z")
Interesting news: > ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1847 "2023-01-24T18:27:41Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I think Germany might have some collective baggage in regards to past sins in the first half of the 20th Century that are coming into play with this. It’s a possibility. Yes, but Germany’s gone from being fascist (1940s) to now being unwilling to stand up against fascism (2020s.) Either way, it’s on the side of fascism, whether intentionally or not. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1848 "2023-01-24T18:41:05Z")
**Modnote** : The second half is a pretty extreme statement and does not fit into a breaking news thread. Stop trolling this thread now! > [@Velocity](#): > > to now being unwilling to stand up against fascism (2020s.) Either way, it’s on the side of fascism, whether intentionally or not. You are close to being the second poster ejected from it. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1849 "2023-01-24T18:44:52Z")
Der Spiegel and Politico > **[Germany moves to send battle tanks to Ukraine](https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-ukraine-leopard-tank-olaf-scholz-war/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=alert&utm_campaign=Germany%20moves%20to%20send%20battle%20tanks%20to%20Ukraine&utm_source=POLITICO.EU&utm_campaign=3cd83abe77-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_01_24_06_18&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-3cd83abe77-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D)** > > Chancellor Olaf Scholz is likely to announce the decision as part of an address in the German parliament on Wednesday. > **[(S+) Krieg in der Ukraine: Deutschland schickt Leopard-Panzer](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/krieg-in-der-ukraine-deutschland-schickt-leopard-panzer-a-e2dde871-88d0-4cf5-8aae-482d58fd850f)** > > Nach monatelanger Debatte hat sich Kanzler Scholz durchgerungen, Kampfpanzer an die Ukraine zu liefern. Auch die Verbündeten wollen offenbar mitziehen. Aus den USA könnten Abrams-Panzer kommen. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1850 "2023-01-24T19:13:12Z")
Dumb question but, given the prowess of systems like Javelin, what makes having a tank useful against enemy armor any more than, say, just Ukrainians driving around many pickup trucks with soldiers toting Javelins? The trucks would be a lot cheaper, faster and low-maintenance, and Javelins can take out Russian tanks, BMPs, any vehicle. Only downside is that they are wheeled and need roads. At this rate it seems more like tanks are an anti-_infantry_ weapon than anything. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1851 "2023-01-24T19:18:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > what makes having a tank useful against enemy armor This was a different thread. > [@Are tanks of any use anymore on the modern battlefield?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-tanks-of-any-use-anymore-on-the-modern-battlefield/961813): > > I have seen it said that the reason one military needs tanks is to defeat the tanks the other side has. In Ukraine we are seeing Russian armor not doing well. Of what use is a tank if it can be taken out by a much cheaper system? Javelin antitank missiles cost around $200,000. Replacement missiles cost about $78,000. A TOW missile costs even less. An Abrams tanks costs around $9 million. So, why go tank-vs-tank? Why not make a jillion man portable anti-tank missiles and be done with enem… ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1852 "2023-01-24T19:37:40Z")
Tanks give you a large-calibre direct fire gun that is highly mobile and relatively difficult to kill. It’s not just to kill enemy tanks. It can do a lot of things on the battlefield that no alternative unit can. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1853 "2023-01-24T19:40:14Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > It can do a lot of things on the battlefield that no alternative unit can. Like wipe out enemy infantry or making them run away in terror without looking back. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1854 "2023-01-24T19:47:46Z")
No, a giant wearing a holocaust cloak, riding in a wheelbarrow, and shouting “I’m the Dread Pirate Roberts. There will be no survivors!” can also make infantry run away in terror without looking back. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1855 "2023-01-24T19:50:25Z")
And what do you call the member of your adventuring party with the most hit points? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1856 "2023-01-24T22:52:23Z")
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