# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 93
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1857 "2023-01-25T00:07:56Z")
I think I [saw this on another thread](https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ukraine-news-live-putin-turning-160719335.html) here – corruption has been uncovered in Ukraine government (a ways down that page). The officials are being fired. Possibly to be subjected to imprisonment (not mentioned in that blurb). Unlike Russia, where such officials are promoted (unless insufficiently pro-Vlad, and windows are near at hand). ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1858 "2023-01-25T00:32:48Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Interesting news: Given the logistics requirements of the Abrams, I’m not sure if they would do Ukraine any significant good. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1859 "2023-01-25T00:36:08Z")
Defense against any Belorussian intrusion. Frees up other forces for active involvement. Not to mention the symbolism. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1860 "2023-01-25T00:38:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Dumb question but, given the prowess of systems like Javelin, what makes having a tank useful against enemy armor any more than, say, just Ukrainians driving around many pickup trucks with soldiers toting Javelins? That depends-- The Russians don’t have the Javelin, itself. How good is their man-portable anti-tank weapon, and how many of them do they have? I’m sure that they have something that’s roughly equivalent, on paper, but how is it on the actual battlefield? If the Russian equivalent can’t reliably kill an Abrams, or they can but don’t have enough of them, then the Abrams’ toughness against lesser munitions would make them a major asset. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1861 "2023-01-25T00:40:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > At this rate it seems more like tanks are an anti-_infantry_ weapon than anything. Which is precisely what they are, by the triangle doctrine that goes back to at least WWII : tanks deal with infantry, anti-tank units deal with tanks, infantry deal with AT units. The British in WWII had this Napoleonic view of tanks as modern cavalry whose job is to deal with enemy cavalry/tanks exclusively. Which cost them dearly in Normandy as the Germans lured them past hidden 88s using the little armour they still possessed as bait. Basically only infantry can defend ground, and tanks are still useful for displacing them as long as they have adequate supporting infantry (and these days drones, missiles etc) to suppress the defender’s AT assets. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1862 "2023-01-25T00:50:46Z")
> **[9M133 Kornet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M133_Kornet)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > > The 9M133 Kornet (Russian: Корнет; "Cornet", NATO reporting name AT-14 Spriggan, export designation Kornet-E) is a Russian man-portable anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) intended for use against main battle tanks. It was first introduced into service with the Russian army in 1998. > The Kornet is among the most capable Russian ATGMs. It is not intended to fully replace previous systems, due to its high cost. It was further developed into the 9M133... It’s quite good. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1863 "2023-01-25T01:19:19Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Which is precisely what they are, by the triangle doctrine that goes back to at least WWII : tanks deal with infantry, anti-tank units deal with tanks, infantry deal with AT units. Except that kind of breaks down when infantry are themselves the anti-tank unit. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1864 "2023-01-25T01:19:28Z")
But in the hands of poorly trained, badly motivated troops? Not that good. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1865 "2023-01-25T01:22:42Z")
Russia’s destroyed plenty of vehicles in this war. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1866 "2023-01-25T03:20:35Z")
3000 tanks fought for 36 hours. We probably won’t see anything like that in Ukraine. I would like to see Ukraine tanks finally break the brutal stalemate at Bakhmut. > **[The story of ‘Fright Night’ – the world’s fiercest tank battle](https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/history-and-civilisation/2021/02/the-untold-story-of-the-worlds-fiercest-tank-battle)** > > 30 years ago, thousands of tanks faced off on a desert battlefield. Today, ‘Fright Night’ still haunts these Gulf War veterans. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1867 "2023-01-25T04:17:47Z")
It’s an encouraging step towards Ukraine reclaiming lost territory. Link [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64391272](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64391272) > [@](#): > > Ukraine is still unlikely to get the 300 modern main battle tanks it says it needs to win the war. > > But if half a dozen Western nations each provide 14 tanks, then that would bring the total to nearly a hundred - which could make a difference. > > Western tanks - including the UK’s Challenger 2, Germany’s Leopard 2 and the US-made Abrams - are all seen as superior to their Soviet-era counterparts, like the ubiquitous T-72. > > They will provide Ukrainian crews with more protection, speed and accuracy. > > But Western modern main battle tanks are not a wonder weapon or game-changer on their own. It’s also what’s being supplied alongside them. > > In recent weeks, there’s been a step change in heavy weapons being supplied by the West - including hundreds more armoured vehicles, artillery systems and ammunition. > > Combined together, they are the kind of military hardware needed to punch through Russian lines and to retake territory. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1868 "2023-01-25T04:23:33Z")
A lot of good information. It will require extensive training for the Ukrainians to fully use this tank. > **[The M1A1 Abrams Has Dominated Tank Warfare for More Than 35 Years](https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a38107679/why-the-m1a1-abrams-is-such-a-badass-tank/)** > > With a 120mm cannon, Chobham armor, and a Chrysler design, the Abrams has dominated tank warfare for more than 35 years. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1869 "2023-01-25T13:57:16Z")
The reluctance to supply tanks to Ukraine must be partially due to concern about the possibility of them being captured. We would rather not have the Russians being able to reverse engineer advanced features, or gather information concerning capabilities and weaknesses. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1870 "2023-01-25T14:06:03Z")
I…doubt it. It’s one thing to have something in your possession, another to actually make it. It’s not like Russia is new to the tank-making industry. If they could have made anything like Abrams or Leopard 2, they long since would have. Having a specimen in their hands won’t give them the ability, especially given the bite of material sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1871 "2023-01-25T14:22:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I…doubt it. It’s one thing to have something in your possession, another to actually make it. Perhaps they could trade it to the Chinese, who has a proven ability to copy things… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1872 "2023-01-25T14:41:16Z")
That’s why I think the Challenger is perhaps the best tank for modern warfare, because it has a rifled barrel which has a longer range than the Leopard or Abrams, so it could in theory take out infantry from beyond their anti-tank range. In addition, it has a reputation for toughness even compared to other MBTs, but that’s more icing on the cake since I don’t know enough about it one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1873 "2023-01-25T15:00:36Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > so it could in theory take out infantry from beyond their anti-tank range The difficulties tanks have with anti-tank infantry are not primarily being able to destroy them at range. The primary difficulty is detecting them. People might be squishy, but they can hide a lot more easily than 50 tons of smoke-belching steel. Thermal sights are nice and all, but a guy with an NLAW behind a brick wall doesn’t have any heat signature aside from that of the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1874 "2023-01-25T18:30:41Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > That’s why I think the Challenger is perhaps the best tank for modern warfare, because it has a rifled barrel which has a longer range than the Leopard or Abrams, so it could in theory take out infantry from beyond their anti-tank range. Tanks are not an efficient anti-infantry indirect fire platform and aren’t used as such much. Artillery is just much better optimized for that job. Interestingly enough a Challenger 1 does seem hold the verified world record for long-distance tank kill, one having taken out an Iraqi tank that was maybe 4 km away. But it might be had held as the Ukrainians are claiming that they beat that by a considerable margin using indirect fire targeted by use of a drone. The tank used? A T-64BV, a natively upgraded version of the old Soviet T-64. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1875 "2023-01-25T19:11:13Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > But it might be had held as the Ukrainians are claiming that they beat that by a considerable margin using indirect fire targeted by use of a drone. The tank used? A T-64BV, a natively upgraded version of the old Soviet T-64. Which would probably been a top attack, more akin to artillery than classic tank-zapping-tank. Definitely the weakness of most modern tanks, and why the TOW 2B (BGM-71F) has a “fly-over top attack” warhead. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1876 "2023-01-25T21:03:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I…doubt it. It’s one thing to have something in your possession, another to actually make it. It’s not like Russia is new to the tank-making industry. If they could have made anything like Abrams or Leopard 2, they long since would have. Having a specimen in their hands won’t give them the ability, especially given the bite of material sanctions. Yeah riiight. So we may as well sell an M1A1 or 2 to the Russkies and bring in some extra cash. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=92) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=94)