# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 94
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1877 "2023-01-25T22:27:52Z")
They’ve officially announced the US will be sending 31 Abrams tanks to Ukraine in the near future. [Biden approves sending 31 Abrams tanks to Ukraine (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/biden-approves-sending-31-abrams-tanks-to-ukraine/ar-AA16JOzn) 31 M-1A1s by itself isn’t a game changer in Ukraine, but with the UK sending 14 Challengers, Germany sending 14 Leopard 2’s, and Poland and several other European countries will almost certainly join in as well. There will probably be around 100 main battle tanks. These in combination with the several hundred IFV’s, APCs, and other mobile infantry support vehicles should be enough to punch a hole somewhere along the 1000km+ front and exploit. The trick is going to be rapidly concentrating all these mechanized forces. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1878 "2023-01-25T22:31:20Z")
The logistics need to be considered. German Leopard tanks are also used by other countries close to Ukraine. They have the facilities to mantain these tanks. The Abrams is not used by any European nation. It will take longer to put them into the fight, the infrastructure to mantain them doesn’t exist in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1879 "2023-01-25T23:52:05Z")
The Abrams does have some nice features, logistically, though. Such as its ability to run on absolutely any sort of fuel. Though I’m not sure whether any other modern tanks also do that. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1880 "2023-01-26T00:47:53Z")
Russia has hit a Turkish ship. > ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1881 "2023-01-26T00:50:57Z")
The ABC News Report reported the Abrams will be manufactured for Ukraine. Delivered next year. Interesting because they won’t be contributing in any counter offense this Spring. That also provides training and logistical support in Ukraine. Fortunately the Leopard 2 tanks should make a difference within months. > [@](#): > > Biden administration officials had [confirmed to ABC News on Tuesday](https://abcnews.go.com/International/us-leaning-sending-abrams-tanks-ukraine-sources/story?id=96638875) that they were considering sending the Abrams tanks to Ukraine under the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative. That means the U.S. will arrange for the contracting of the tanks with their manufacturer, which could mean the vehicles will not be able to be fielded for quite some time – possibly more than a year. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1882 "2023-01-26T02:25:05Z")
I think the most important thing the the M1s provide is an excuse for Germany to start sending their Leopard 2s to Ukraine. Germany can say “hey we said we wouldn’t promise ours until the U.S. promises theirs” and then go ahead with the transfer they were wanting to do anyway, all while saving face. Heck, if the Leopards do well enough this summer, the Abramses might not be needed in 2024… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1883 "2023-01-26T02:27:23Z")
[Daily Beast Jan. 25, 2023](https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukraine-predicts-attacks-on-major-russian-cities) **Ukraine Predicts Attacks on Major Russian Cities** Ukrainian authorities say Russia’s biggest cities are bound to suffer attacks as a result of the Kremlin’s war against Ukraine. “Internal escalation of the war in Russia is inevitable,” [said](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HDTZuBGhNA) Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to the Ukrainian president. “Cities that are pampered, lazy, that thought they lived in a different reality, such as Moscow, St. Petersburg, and Yekaterinburg, will be subject to strikes,” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1884 "2023-01-26T02:46:31Z")
To elaborate, it was a freighter that’s been stuck at Kherson harbor for almost a year (it didn’t fall under the grain-ship agreement). Because it’s been stranded there, there was only a skeleton crew, and it appears nobody was injured or killed. Full (or full-er) story: > **[Turkish Cargo Ship Hit By Missile in Ukraine](https://gcaptain.com/turkish-cargo-ship-hit-by-missile-in-ukraine/)** > > ISTANBUL, Jan 25 (Reuters) – A Turkish-owned general cargo ship was struck by a missile in the port of the southern Ukrainian city of Kherson, sparking a fire, according to video footage... ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1885 "2023-01-26T03:07:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Abrams does have some nice features, logistically, though. Such as its ability to run on absolutely any sort of fuel. Though I’m not sure whether any other modern tanks also do that. I just read that the Leopard 2 runs on diesel, which is easily available in Ukraine, but the Abrams on “jet fuel”, whatever that means. Is that not so? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1886 "2023-01-26T03:31:45Z")
> **[M1 Abrams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams)** > > The M1 Abrams (/ˈeɪbrəmz/) is a third-generation American main battle tank designed by Chrysler Defense (now General Dynamics Land Systems) and named for General Creighton Abrams. Conceived for modern armored ground warfare and now one of the heaviest tanks in service at nearly 68 short tons (62 metric tons), it introduced several modern technologies to US armored forces, including a multifuel turbine engine, sophisticated Chobham composite armor, a computer fire control system, separate The M... > The tank was built around this engine[[112]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams#cite_note-113) and it is multifuel-capable, including [diesel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_fuel), [gasoline](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline), [marine diesel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_diesel_oil) and [jet fuel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel)[[113]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams#cite_note-114) (such as [JP-4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP-4) or [JP-8](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP-8)). By 1989, the Army was transitioning solely to JP-8 for the M1 Abrams.[[114]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams#cite_note-115) For [logistical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_logistics) simplicity, JP-8 is the U.S. military’s universal fuel powering both aircraft and vehicle fleets. The Australian M1A1 AIM SA burns diesel fuel, since the use of JP-8 is less common in the Australian Army… > The gas turbine propulsion system has proven quite reliable in practice and combat, but its high fuel consumption is a serious logistic problem.[[115]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams#cite_note-armorsite-116) The engine burns more than 1.67 US gallons per mile (392 Liters/100 km) or (60 US gallons (230 L) per hour) when traveling cross-country and 10 US gallons (38 L) per hour when idle. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1887 "2023-01-26T04:18:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Abrams does have some nice features, logistically, though. Such as its ability to run on absolutely any sort of fuel. Though I’m not sure whether any other modern tanks also do that. Multi-fuel engines are pretty common in military diesels, and the Leopard II apparently has one. My dad used to tell me that a deuce and a half could run on paint or avgas mixed with oil. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1888 "2023-01-26T05:35:28Z")
They could create great anguish and dismay amongst the enemy by being seen apparently pouring Stoli into their fuel tanks. Although, sometimes actions like that can have the opposite of the intended effect. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1889 "2023-01-26T09:18:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > **Ukraine Predicts Attacks on Major Russian Cities** > > Ukrainian authorities say Russia’s biggest cities are bound to suffer attacks as a result of the Kremlin’s war against Ukraine. That’s quite scary. Directly attacking Russian cities with Western tanks isn’t part of the deal. The goal is to push the Russians out of Ukraine’s occupied territory. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1890 "2023-01-26T09:22:50Z")
Iraq was pushed out of Kuwait by military forces going into Iraq. Which is not to say that’s the best approach here, just that it has been done that way in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1891 "2023-01-26T09:38:31Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The goal is to push the Russians out of Ukraine’s occupied territory. And to deter future Russian incursions. Even if an armistice is agreed upon between Ukraine and Russia, there will be a Korean style standoff at the borders for years or decades to come. This means a lot of western tanks sitting on that line (which is exactly what Putin’s _casus belli_ was for invading in the first place.) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1892 "2023-01-26T12:42:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Ukrainian authorities say Russia’s biggest cities are bound to suffer attacks as a result of the Kremlin’s war against Ukraine. “Internal escalation of the war in Russia is inevitable,” said Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to the Ukrainian president. [Above quote from Magiver’s link, not from Magiver] If Ukraine or anybody else starts launching missiles (or whatnot) at St. Pete or Moscow, Putin’s gonna kinda go nuclear. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1893 "2023-01-26T13:12:34Z")
There’s certain red lines that simply can’t be crossed. Attacking Russian cities is one. Ukraine has attacked bases that are launching the infrastructure attacks in Ukraine. That’s basic survival. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1894 "2023-01-26T14:15:07Z")
Which Ukrainian official would have the unenviable task of telling Ukrainian voters that while they are being targeted, their homes are being blown up, and the electricity is off more than it’s on that Russia’s repeated blows below the belt can be met only by Queensbury Rules punches? No, I don’t want Russian civilians to be killed. But an attack on the electricity, broadcasting (propaganda!), or telecom infrastructure of St. Petersburg or Moscow would let the Russian citizenry know this ain’t a guns-and-butter over-there draft-only-peasants war that they can apathy or head-down their way through. Maybe more of them, enough of them, would remember they ARE citizens of a republic in 2023, not subjects of Czar Vladimir the Awful in the 18th Century. And while it would be better for that to be accomplished by cyberattack or a team of saboteurs, I wouldn’t really begrudge Ukraine an old-school Doolittle raid with 21st Century weaponry. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1895 "2023-01-26T19:49:17Z")
The Abrams and some Bradleys could be a potent force to guard the roads from Belarus. Stop any new invasion force. The next counter offensive is expected from there. Ukraine has a lot of forces in that role. They could be freed to fight elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1896 "2023-01-26T20:05:30Z")
That area of Ukraine is wooded and marshy, so not well-suited to tanks. [![](https://i.imgur.com/HFFft2d.png) ](https://i.imgur.com/HFFft2d.png) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=93) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=95)