# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 95
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1897 "2023-01-26T20:13:59Z")
That’s where the original Russian invasion rolled into Ukraine and threatened Kiev. But they picked a good time to use the roads. The Abrams high fuel use limits their mobility. They need to assigned somewhere important and stay put. Maybe the government in Kiev? They aren’t fast response units on Ukraine’s muddy roads. They can’t go charging off to battle in Kherson and then Donetsk a few weeks later. I get the impression the Leopard 2 are better at moving quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1898 "2023-01-26T20:21:45Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > That’s where the original Russian invasion rolled into Ukraine and threatened Kiev. And it went very badly, because they were confined to the roads, leading to huge stalled columns of Russian vehicles that were picked off by Ukrainian infantry in the woods with anti-tank weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1899 "2023-01-26T20:26:41Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Like wipe out enemy infantry or making them run away in terror without looking back. Not so much if they are MANPATS equipped… ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1900 "2023-01-26T20:41:54Z")
Seems like every war has its traitors and spies. They can cost a lot of lives with intel. > **[Ukrainian security service ‘needs cleanout’ after arrest of accused spy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/ukrainian-security-service-needs-cleanout-after-arrest-of-accused-spy)** > > Former security official Viktor Yahun says Ukraine’s SBU agency has long been overly close to Russia’s FSB > [@](#): > > The Ukrainian security service (SBU) reported on Thursday that they arrested a lieutenant colonel in their ranks on suspicion of “high treason” and published a photograph of bundles of cash found in his home. > > The unnamed man is said to have used his mobile phone to photograph documents detailing the location of military checkpoints in Zaporizhzhia, a frontline region in the south-east of the country, and sending the information via an email account registered on a Russian domain. > > A photo issued alongside the official statement showed sim cards issued by Russian mobile carriers, bundles of foreign currency, a knuckle duster, two knives and a Russian language guide to learning English. > > “Evidence of permanent connections with representatives of law enforcement and state bodies of the Russian Federation was also established,” the statement said. “In particular, close relatives of the traitor are among them.” ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1901 "2023-01-26T20:45:12Z")
The US Army standard infantry company has two anti-armor teams totalling 4 solders, so the majority of the company would be forced to hunker down or withdraw, hopefully calling in the necessary antitank support while they’re still in contact. > **[U.S. Army Light Rifle Company (2012-Present)](https://www.battleorder.org/usa-rifleco-ibct-2020)** > > An overview of the current U.S. Army light rifle company. I don’t know what distribution of infantry anti-tank weapons in the Ukrainian fielded forces, but I doubt it’s one Javelin per soldier. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1902 "2023-01-26T20:54:36Z")
It doesn’t have to be one javelin per soldier. A combined arms approach using light vehicles that doesn’t rely on tanks is still cheaper, more easily fielded, and can be very effective against armor. IIRC the USMC is moving away from tanks: > **[U.S Marines Deploy With Massive New Mobile, High-Speed Anti-Tank Weapon](https://warriormaven.com/land/marines-deploy-with-massive-new-mobile-high-speed-anti-tank-weapon-maaws)** > > By Kris Osborn - Warrior Maven (Washington, D.C.) The Marine Corps is divesting itself of heavy, hard-to-transport tanks and massively arming its smaller, ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1903 "2023-01-26T20:55:11Z")
Every rifle squad also has someone with an AT4, so they aren’t _entirely_ dependent on the anti-armor squads. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1904 "2023-01-26T22:40:28Z")
It’s my understanding that Ukranian infantry has the highest density of anti tank weapons in the world. Like multiples for every Russian armored vehicle in country. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1905 "2023-01-26T23:31:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > There’s certain red lines that simply can’t be crossed. Attacking Russian cities is one. Ukraine is suggesting that it will be done by Russians upset with Putin. Not by Ukrainian actions. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1906 "2023-01-27T02:38:39Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > (which is exactly what Putin’s _casus belli_ was for invading in the first place.) This has been Putin’s biggest fail with this war. Supposedly he did not want a Ukraine allied with NATO. He did not want NATO on his border. Now he’s going to end up with a very well armed and prepared NATO on his border, as well as Sweden and Finland joining NATO as a direct response to Russian aggression. As an added bonus, he also now has a military that has been exposed as poorly equipped, poorly led and now much reduced. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1907 "2023-01-27T14:49:45Z")
5 posts were merged into an existing topic: [Finland and Sweden appear poised for entry to NATO {2022-05-12}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/89) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1908 "2023-01-27T18:14:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Ukraine is suggesting that it will be done by Russians upset with Putin. Not by Ukrainian actions. Which would not prevent state-run media from reporting that the attacks came from Ukraine, especially after Ukraine made such a statement. They might as well just do it themselves – the net result would be the same. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1909 "2023-01-27T18:31:12Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Which would not prevent state-run media from reporting that the attacks came from Ukraine, especially after Ukraine made such a statement. They might as well just do it themselves – the net result would be the same. Putin’s entire reason for starting the war was because of evil flying monkeys or some such rot. He doesn’t need an excuse to do what he does. What Russia needs is a million citizens writing “Death to Putin” on every square inch of public space. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1910 "2023-01-28T07:00:54Z")
The frustrating thing is that it was abundantly clear as early as April 2022 that Ukraine wasn’t going to lose. All this talk about F-16s, Abrams, Leopards, etc. should have been in the get-the-ball-rolling stage from that point on, that early. It shouldn’t have been something started only now. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1911 "2023-01-28T07:30:43Z")
If or when Western-made tanks meet Russian tanks on the battlefield, it could be a case of irresistible force vs irreversible object. The Leopard 2’s stabilized barrel allows it to fire on the move, even over rough ground: > > [@](#): > > The Rh-120 is highly accurate while shooting on the move due to a two-axis stabilization system that counteracts the tank’s movement against the position of the Rh-120 gun barrel. Older tanks need to come to a halt to fire accurately at enemy targets, an action that collectively slows an attacking force’s momentum. The Leopard 2’s stabilization system allows the main gun to remain oriented against a target even while the tank is maneuvering over rough terrain. This gives the Leopard 2 a high level of accuracy while shooting on the move, or a spill-free delivery of a stein filled with beer. Meanwhile, Russian tanks are slow at reversing and, since a tank’s frontal armor is much thicker than the other sides, a tank should never turn around and expose its sides or rear to the enemy on a battlefield. > [@](#): > > But the biggest advantage of Western tanks are their far superior thermal sights. > > At night russian tankers won’t even see Western tanks, while Western tanks will see, target and destroy russian tanks from distances of up to 5km. russian tank crews will only survive if they jump out and run, because with reverse speeds of 4 km/h (T-72), 10 km/h (T-80), and 6 km/h (T-90) there is no escape for russian tanks from Western APFSDS rounds. > > In this video a Finnish T-72 reverses at maximum speed… and if a russian tank does a U-turn, then the APFSDS will punch through the russian tanks thinly armored side or rear. [Video of T-72 reversing](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1619054101492371456/pu/vid/1280x720/gN80l6VPnKl7cH22.mp4?tag=12) > **[Behind the Leopard 2: The NATO Tank Headed to Ukraine That Everyone Is...](https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a41713287/why-the-leopard-2-is-a-badass-tank/)** > > In a strange twist of fate, a tank designed to face down the Soviet Union’s mighty Red Army may end up the armored champion of one ex-Soviet country, while fighting another ex-Soviet country. > **[Thread by @noclador on Thread Reader App](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1619058078158319618.html)** > > @noclador: Soon Challenger 2, Leopard 2A5/6 and M1A1/2 Abrams will roam across the Ukrainian steppe to hunt and destroy russian armor. All three are leagues better than what the russians field, but tanks on their ow...… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1912 "2023-01-28T09:04:36Z")
This is the closest thing to Cold-War-gone-hot thing we’ll see in our lifetimes, glad to witness it, too bad the teaspoon-sized amounts of aid being given to Ukraine aren’t enough to decisively turn the tide. Need more. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1913 "2023-01-28T14:39:43Z")
I think the Challenger 2 with freshly trained crews may see the first battle action. The battles will be intense by the end of March. The 14 Challenger 2 tanks may have to hold the battle lines until the Leopard 2 tanks are serviced and crews ready. The Bradleys with trained crews could arrive at about the same time. I’ve seen reports Ukrainians are already training in the US. Link [Britain wants Challenger tanks in Ukraine by end of March - minister | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/britain-wants-challenger-tanks-ukraine-by-end-march-minister-2023-01-26/) > [@](#): > > [Earlier this month](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk-has-ambition-send-tanks-ukraine-pm-sunak-tells-zelenskiy-2023-01-14/), Britain said it would send 14 of its main battle tanks along with additional artillery support to Ukraine. > > “The intention is that it will be at the end of March,” he told parliament in response to a question asking when the tanks would arrive in Ukraine. > > He said between now and then, Ukrainian forces would be trained intensively on how to operate and maintain the vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1914 "2023-01-28T14:44:30Z")
[Article in the Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/us-germany-ukraine-tanks-russia-nato/672859/) about how the smaller countries in NATO banded together and forced the USA and Germany to stop withholding tanks from Ukraine. Don’t know if it’s behind a paywall. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1915 "2023-01-28T14:52:20Z")
I’d like to see a counter offensive planned after the arrival of the Challenger 2 and Bradley vehicles. Their arrival should be a PR blow to Russia. Grab territory that was previously unobtainable. Use the intimidation of the tanks to shove Russian forces back ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/1916 "2023-01-28T15:22:44Z")
500 troops ready by end of March. > **[Expanded US training for Ukraine forces begins in Germany](https://news.yahoo.com/expanded-us-training-ukraine-forces-012705448.html)** > > The U.S. military's new, expanded combat training of Ukrainian forces began in Germany on Sunday, with a goal of getting a battalion of about 500 troops back on the battlefield to fight the Russians in the next five to eight weeks, said Gen. Mark... > [@](#): > > The program will include classroom instruction and field work that will begin with small squads and gradually grow to involve larger units. It would culminate with a more complex combat exercise bringing an entire battalion and a headquarters unit together. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=94) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=96)