# Russia invades Ukraine -- The regional situation **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349 "2023-12-30T18:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/742 "2024-12-01T20:06:12Z")
The Tartus port is pretty strategically important to Russia. Warm water and don’t have to transit the Bosporus. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/743 "2024-12-01T20:06:23Z")
Those qualifiers like “as much as reasonably possible” and “given legitimate military aims” are doing a lot of work in that post, and countries at war always interpret those qualifiers very differently than those of us sitting in armchairs in a country that’s currently (mostly) at peace. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/744 "2024-12-01T22:16:18Z")
No one said this stuff was easy. But a blanket “we can kill whatever civilians we want by claiming they’re helping the war effort” ain’t it. ALL civilians who pay taxes are helping the war effort, and so I just cannot subscribe to that. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/745 "2024-12-01T22:33:48Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I don’t believe this is true, otherwise Putin would not be the richest man on Earth, as he probably is. And the Wagner group has been about robbing and stealing from its inception, and has been very successful at it. Russians use vandalismus on the one hand as and end (see → sadism and psychopathology), but also as a means to enrich themselves. Historically, the Russian ruling class has mostly focused on stealing from the Russian people, not from the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/746 "2024-12-01T23:11:10Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > No one said this stuff was easy. But a blanket “we can kill whatever civilians we want by claiming they’re helping the war effort” ain’t it. Ideally, no. But in practice, that’s exactly what the folks in WWII who didn’t get tried for war crimes did. Today, standards have changed, but even today, I don’t think anyone would give Ukraine any guff over targeting a munitions factory at some time other than the graveyard shift. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/747 "2024-12-02T00:05:05Z")
Seriously, it’s a murky area in the murky laws of war. Many sides’ fig leaves are rather worm-holey Killing civilians terrorist-style simply to reduce the enemy headcount is illegal. Blowing up a factory making weapons components while it’s full of civilian employees is OK. Putting anti-aircraft missiles atop an occupied hospital or school is illegal. Blowing up those missile installations is … a darn good question, but probably legal. Etc. War’s an ugly biz. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/748 "2024-12-02T11:27:38Z")
Russia just approved spending 1/3 of its budget on military: > **[Putin approves record defense spending – a third of Russia’s budget | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/02/europe/putin-russia-defense-budget-ukraine-intl-hnk/index.html)** > > Russian President Vladimir Putin has approved a record-breaking defense budget, setting aside a staggering third of the government’s total spending as the war in Ukraine drains resources from both sides nearly three years on. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/749 "2024-12-02T14:40:16Z")
Russia running out of Soviet era military equipment so now they need to either make it or buy it. And all that extra defence spending will play havoc with Russia’s inflationary problems. I read somewhere that Russia can keep this up for another year. Maybe if the price of oil goes up things will ease for them. But as I said before, both sides are positioning themselves as favourably as possible before potential negotiations. So we are in a strange period right now where everything is being ratcheted up at a much faster pace than normal. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/750 "2024-12-02T16:55:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But in practice, that’s exactly what the folks in WWII who didn’t get tried for war crimes did. That’s true, but doesn’t make it right. > [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Russia running out of Soviet era military equipment so now they need to either make it or buy it. And all that extra defence spending will play havoc with Russia’s inflationary problems. Even in a dictatorship spooling up defence production ain’t easy. There are things you can make more of pretty quickly, but some things aren’t just stuff you whomp together in a week or a month. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/751 "2024-12-03T07:57:36Z")
Latest US aid package to Ukraine from US defense stocks. Includes anti-personnel mines scattered from artillery shells (ADAM) and ground vehicles (Volcano). Both varieties self-destruct after battery rundown. The capabilities in this announcement include: Munitions for National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems (NASAMS); Stinger missiles; Counter-Unmanned Aerial Systems (c-UAS) munitions; Ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS); 155mm and 105mm artillery ammunition; Unmanned Aerial Systems (UAS); Non-persistent land mines; Tube-launched, Optically tracked, Wire-guided (TOW) missiles; Javelin and AT-4 anti-armor systems; Small arms and ammunition; Demolitions equipment and munitions; Equipment to protect critical national infrastructure; and Spare parts, ancillary equipment, services, training, and transportation. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/752 "2024-12-03T12:55:59Z")
I read just yesterday about the Wagner Group in Africa. They are sending billions of dollars to Russia from all the gold mining. Russia really is just pure evil. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/753 "2024-12-03T15:57:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > No one said this stuff was easy. But a blanket “we can kill whatever civilians we want by claiming they’re helping the war effort” ain’t it. I didn’t say that. I said: > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > If she is killed in her apartment, then no; she is not a legitimate target. But she is when she is at the factory. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/754 "2024-12-03T18:34:30Z")
And I disagree that a civilian who is in a factory is themselves a legitimate target without any sort of caveat on that. That is a opening to being allowed to kill civilians without restriction. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/755 "2024-12-03T18:45:25Z")
It’s not as if they’re being targeted themselves. They are targets in the sense that they are in a factory that is being attacked. Or do you think that munitions/aircraft/etc. factories are not legitimate targets? Can they not be attacked if there are any civilians in them? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/756 "2024-12-03T23:13:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And I disagree that a civilian who is in a factory is themselves a legitimate target without any sort of caveat on that. That is a opening to being allowed to kill civilians without restriction. A civilian working in a factory shouldn’t be a target, but they may be regarded as acceptable collateral damage when the factory itself is targeted. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/757 "2024-12-04T00:03:59Z")
Zactly. Said another way, putting civilian workers in your munitions plant is not a magic shield that makes your munitions production immune from attack. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/758 "2024-12-04T18:29:01Z")
The Youtube channels usually focus on small Ukrainian victories. Ukraine’s capture of territory in Kursk is uplifting. The bigger picture is disturbing. Russia’s unrelenting approach that ignores casualties is steadily working. Russia’s scorched earth policy has served them well in the past. It helped defeat Germany in WWII. > **[How Ukraine has faced its worst month on the battlefield in two years –...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2024/dec/04/how-ukraine-faced-worst-month-battlefield-in-two-years-visualised)** > > November was Ukraine’s worst month since September 2022 for territory lost to Russian forces. These charts and maps show the latest developments in the war ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/759 "2024-12-04T18:36:59Z")
> **[First Signs Russia Is Evacuating Navy Ships From Syria - Naval News](https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2024/12/first-sign-russian-navy-evacuating-naval-vessels-from-tartus-syria/)** > > The Russian Navy's base at Tartus in Syria is crucial to its support of the Assad regime, and its ambitions on the world stage. The dramatic shift in the front lines in Syria now puts the base at risk. There are indications that Russia may be... > It now appears possible that the port will eventually be attacked or abandoned. Certainly it appears likely that Russian warships are leaving the once safe port. It is expected that the warships will sail from the Mediterranean to the Baltic. Possibly they will seek temporary safe harbour in Algeria or Libya on the way. > **Outlook Not Good For Russia** > It now appears possible that the port will eventually be attacked or abandoned. Certainly it appears likely that Russian warships are leaving the once safe port. It is expected that the warships will sail from the Mediterranean to the Baltic. Possibly they will seek temporary safe harbour in Algeria or Libya on the way. > > If Tartus remains in Russian control then it is likely to be used for any Russian heavy reinforcements. These will take weeks to arrive however so initial movements are more likely by air. Until February 2024 Russia maintained regular ship transits to the Black Sea, nicknamed the ‘Syrian Express’. These stopped however, likely because of the increased threat of Ukrainian surface drones (USVs) in the Black Sea. Now ships have to sail around Europe to the Baltic. If Russia is desperate to reinforce Syria, or evacuate heavy equipment, it may attempt the Black Sea route again. If so, it will expose itself to Ukraine’s surface drones. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/760 "2024-12-04T18:53:33Z")
This war has so many conflicting reports. There are many reported successes. There are more strategic targets that Ukraine’s missiles can reach. Yet Russia keeps inching along taking Ukrainian territory. Ukraine’s front line troops are reportedly exhausted. WTH, yeah Trump will make it all better. > **[Ukraine’s exhausted troops in Russia told to cling on and wait for Trump](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn4x9gz4ylwo)** > > Ukrainian soldiers paint a bleak picture of a battle they don't understand, and fear they will lose. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/761 "2024-12-04T22:54:16Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The bigger picture is disturbing. Russia’s unrelenting approach that ignores casualties is steadily working. No, it’s not. All it’s getting them is territory. This war will not be won nor lost on territory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349.md?page=39)