# Russia invades Ukraine -- The regional situation **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349 "2023-12-30T18:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/101 "2024-01-24T21:55:39Z")
Meanwhile, in further “Russia screwing up their place in the world”, the last NATO holdout to Sweden becoming part of the organization has declared they’re cool with it now. > **[Viktor Orbán says Hungary will approve Sweden’s Nato bid](https://www.ft.com/content/57db9de5-b473-4ee7-8c55-b435e6345fba)** > > Firebrand leader speaks to head of military alliance after Turkey opts to support Scandinavian nation’s accession ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/102 "2024-01-24T22:17:32Z")
Unfortunately it is not that easy or straight forward: > **[Orbán reaffirms backing for Swedish Nato bid as allies’ patience runs low](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/24/orban-reaffirms-backing-for-swedish-nato-bid-as-allies-patience-runs-low)** > > Hungarian parliament yet to sign off on application despite repeated promises not to hold up process alone From the article (where there is a lot of other infuriating stuff about Viktor Orbán and Erdogan): > Asked about frustration within Nato about Hungary’s delays, Balázs Orbán, the Hungarian prime minister’s political director, said in an email on Wednesday that “we take our Nato membership and military commitments very seriously” and that “the Hungarian government supports Sweden’s accession to Nato”. > > He added: “Constant political attacks on Hungary by the Swedish political, media and NGO elite raised concerns among Hungarian MPs. For this reason, we have repeatedly asked the Swedish government to engage in political consultations by visiting Hungary. Unfortunately, despite high-level Hungarian delegations visiting Stockholm, our requests have been repeatedly declined. > > “Nevertheless, we remain open to dialogue if Nato membership is indeed a priority for Sweden. The ball is in their court.” The last two sentences quoted are just outrageous. Hungary is playing Russian roulette with their future: the rest of Europe and NATO will remember this. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/103 "2024-01-26T15:54:35Z")
And the US is showing that its patience is running thin: > **[US ‘disappointed’ Hungary taking so long to approve Sweden joining Nato](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/26/us-disappointed-that-hungary-taking-so-long-to-approve-sweden-joining-nato)** > > Washington’s ambassador says Budapest is ‘really alone’ and describes its foreign policy as a ‘fantasy’ Whatever Putin is promising Viktor Orbán must be really juicy or he and his pals suck at weighing. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/104 "2024-01-26T16:02:09Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Whatever Putin is promising Viktor Orbán must be really juicy I think Orbán is just catering to whatever the Hungarian version of a MAGA base is called there. For practical reasons, Hungary needs to be part of NATO, but for political reasons, the ruling party needs to disparage it and look like they are resisting expansion. The American right has been doing this in regards to the UN for the last 75 years. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/105 "2024-01-26T16:12:28Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > The American right has been doing this in regards to the UN for the last 75 years. The American right was doing this to NATO during the unfortunate 4 years of the prior administration. Anything that smacks of multilateralism is anathema to these chuckleheads. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/106 "2024-01-27T02:04:49Z")
Stronger as a group than alone? That’s crazy talk!! Rugged individualistic countries FTW@ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/107 "2024-01-27T03:02:07Z")
Anyone else thinging of the ‘bundle of arrows’ analogy? ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/108 "2024-01-29T19:39:48Z")
Does anyone foresee India distancing itself from Russia? India gets the majority of their military equipment from Russia, but Russia these days is interested in arming its own forces first and foremost. So maybe it isn’t surprising that they’ve elected to go with new and different defense contractors these days. [India’s defense pivot: Ditching Russia for NATO and US suppliers amid Ukraine crisis (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/indias-defense-pivot-ditching-russia-for-nato-and-us-suppliers-amid-ukraine-crisis/ar-BB1hqcB4) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/109 "2024-01-29T20:14:37Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Does anyone foresee India distancing itself from Russia? Not unless the currency issue becomes unsolvable. Which I doubt in the medium term - someone will blink, there is too much at stake for both sides. India is getting sweetheart deals for petroleum they need, Russia is getting hard cash. But even then… Fundamentally cynical Indian realpolitik doesn’t give a shit about Ukraine (not every Indian, nor every Indian politician - but in terms of Indian geopolitical interests). Russia meanwhile is a very useful economic partner and arms designer as well as supplier. That article notes that spare parts/delivery issues are pushing diversification. But India has ALWAYS diversified. Their air force flies French Mirage 2000s and Rafales next to Russian Mig-29s and Russo-Indian-designed, but Indian built SU-30MKIs (that incorporate French and Israeli touches). Heck they have American C-130s flying next to Russian Il-76s. That Russian war-time supply chain means India isn’t making any major military purchases from them anytime soon. But it’s far cry from that to divesting themselves of all Russian support systems - way too much of their equipment IS Russian built/designed and will be for decades at least. Any change is their relationship with Russia will be long-term. Far too gradual and slow to make any difference to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/110 "2024-01-29T23:11:10Z")
The Indians have been drifting away from Russia as a military supplier for a couple decades now. The drift has picked up speed as India has become more capable and more wealthy on their own. Russian stuff is cheap, which is good. But it’s shite, which is not. The whole Ukraine thing just accelerated India’s existing movement. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/111 "2024-01-30T01:17:08Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But it’s shite, which is not. The stuff India is directly waiting on is S-400 systems (the last of them are due to be delivered this year, Russia claims they will meet the deadline). Those are probably not shite. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/112 "2024-01-30T01:21:13Z")
Agreed. The Russians make very nice EW gear and very nice SAMs. The jets and armored vehicles not so much. I don’t know much about their ships & subs, but I’m betting “Meh, but now with extra QC problems” is probably a decent thumbnail sketch. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/113 "2024-01-30T01:53:26Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The jets and armored vehicles not so much. > > I don’t know much about their ships & subs, but I’m betting “Meh, but now with extra QC problems” is probably a decent thumbnail sketch. Dunno about the jets - to my understanding they’ve out performed Ukraine in the rare direct confrontations, but then again they’re up against very inferior foes (technologically anyway, Russia has a very big advantage in long-range engagement). Detaching technical capability from pilot training can also be complicated. Indications are Russian pilots just aren’t getting the long flight hours, larger formation training and practice that Western pilots do. Just anecdotally Western pilots invited to test-fly modern Russian warplanes seem to be usually favorably impressed. I would expect Russia to be doing okay to good in the missile and combat aircraft realm because that seems to be what they’ve concentrated scarce economic resources on, post-USSR. By contrast armored vehicle design/procurement design was shafted. Less sexy and they had that huge legacy fleet of vehicles that allowed them to be complacent about replacing them. They USSR/Russia never seems to have been all that great at surface ship design. Some weird, bulky everything-but-the-kitchen-sink frankensteins with seemingly sometimes dubious seaworthiness. They seem to be better at designing subs - they’ve sometimes been innovative in a good way there. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/114 "2024-01-31T03:15:41Z")
Russia ships are… not great. Their aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov is a rusted out piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/115 "2024-01-31T03:24:05Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Russia ships are… not great. How can you tell a Russian nuclear sub crew? They glow in the dark. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/116 "2024-01-31T12:44:35Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Russia ships are… not great. Their aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov is a rusted out piece of shit. Don’t confuse how well it worked when new with how well-maintained it’s been across 2 governments, major disruptions, the near bankruptcy of the entire society, and modern Russian standard maintenance. That ship class was about the limit case of a hubristic leap into the future just as their society collapsed. Of course it sucks now. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/117 "2024-01-31T22:43:16Z")
They don’t have it available new. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/118 "2024-02-03T00:22:47Z")
The topic was the design and construction of Russian weaponry, not the current condition of Russian weaponry. Different questions have different answers. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/119 "2024-02-04T05:25:05Z")
> [@Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/6836): > > Perhaps better suited to a dedicated thread about international laws of warfare, but doesn’t this blur the line between civilian and military facilities, and turn homes into legitimate targets? The only “legitimate targets” in Ukraine are those occupied by or being used for the Russians. This is a war of aggression. Hence, the invasion itself is unlawful, and Ukraine’s military is no more open to lawful attack than its civilian population, whether or not they are engaged in arms-making. > Obviously the Russians have zero regard for law and target civilians indiscriminately whether or not they’re combatants, Also that. > but if Ukraine wants to make a case for war crimes in international eyes, does this undermine that? I don’t see why it should. See my first point. See also the Nuremberg trials (among others), where many of the defendants were charged with waging a war of aggression: that charge by itself is sufficient to warrant a trial for war crimes, even if all the other laws of armed conflict are scrupulously adhered to (and as you acknowledge, they surely have not been). Bottom line, Russia has no right to use force against anyone or anything in Ukraine, whether or not it is a military target. Russian soldiers in Ukraine likewise have no right of self-defense, and their lives as such are forfeit unless and until they either surrender to Ukrainian forces or otherwise signal their intent to immediately withdraw from hostilities. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/120 "2024-02-08T19:54:27Z")
Finland is keeping their border with Russia closed, citing Moscow’s continued “hybrid operation” of flooding the border with migrants. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349.md?page=7)