# Russia invades Ukraine -- The regional situation **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349 "2023-12-30T18:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1323 "2025-11-21T04:42:07Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > > [@Velocity](#): > > > > Gold is being sold! > > That is interesting. > [@Kedikat](#): > > Gold prices may drop quite a bit. I’ve noticed more ‘Buy gold!’ commercials. People with gold (at least on paper) want to sell their ‘gold’ to the rubes while prices are high. Might be a good time to watch the market, and buy when it falls. In reference to the regional situation, it sounds like Russia might be getting a little desperate. Not necessarily an omen of an impending Russian collapse, but interestingly nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1324 "2025-11-21T18:58:11Z")
Trump’s ultimatum to Ukraine to accept the “peace plan” is a disgrace. The terms may as well have been written by Putin himself. And if Ukraine refuses the US will withdraw all support to Ukraine. The deal is much worse for Ukraine than the prospect of losing American intelligence or whatever other support the US provides because it’s basically nothing less than terms of surrender. Zelenskyy has no choice but to play the game and hope to talk Trump down. > **[Zelensky ready to work with US on 'their vision' for ending Ukraine war](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly1ypqlle0o)** > > Kyiv says it is willing to engage with a US-backed draft peace plan aimed at ending the war with Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1325 "2025-11-21T19:15:00Z")
Neville Chamberlain has got nothing on Trump, nothing at all. But just as alarming is that if the USA pulls all out, there is still no sign that Western Europe, despite nearly 4 years ongoing now, is ready or willing to truly pick up the slack and arm and fund Ukraine to the gills. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1326 "2025-11-21T19:21:22Z")
So the worst is coming true. With Trump’s plan, Russia wins everything, and Ukraine loses everything. Russia will keep all the land it has conquered, and be given more for free. Ukraine loses some of what it has, and gains absolutely nothing. They have to cede land, reduce the size of their army and not join Nato. And there isn’t even any commitment from Russia not to attack again A very, very sad ending. > **[Territorial concessions by Ukraine, a capped army and security guarantees:...](https://www.nbcnews.com/world/ukraine/trump-peace-plan-proposal-end-russia-ukraine-war-rcna245096)** > > Ripples of alarm and anger were coursing from Kyiv through Europe as details emerged of the 28-point peace plan for Russia and Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1327 "2025-11-21T19:31:36Z")
What ending? Nothing has ended. Idiots and clowns are trying to spread idiocy and clownery and there’s not a shred of evidence that Europe and Ukraine are going to cooperate. Your consistent worst-case pessimism is almost comical at this point. Yes, things are bad (though no worse for Ukraine than 9 months ago, and not trending any worse since then), and Trump and Putin are awful and dumb, and they’re spreading an awful, dumb plan. But their plan doesn’t matter if Ukraine and Europe don’t cooperate, and there’s no evidence they will. This could be desperation by Putin. We’re already seeing many, many signs their economy is hugely struggling. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1328 "2025-11-21T20:13:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > there’s not a shred of evidence that Europe and Ukraine are going to cooperate Zelensky is panicking-calling this “the most difficult moment of our history”. To me, that seems like evidence . > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your consistent worst-case pessimism is almost comical We’ll know by Thursday. (if Trump holds to his deadline) (And I do hope that my comedy is bad, and you get the last laugh.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1329 "2025-11-21T20:21:53Z")
Zelensky is playing the game, like he has to (and like he has been since Trump was elected). If this war has taught us anything, it’s that Zelensky is smart and strategic, and Putin is not. That Trump is dumb doesn’t even need to be said. Ukraine has held a much, much bigger power, with a much, much bigger military, at a functional stalemate, for years, and there’s no evidence this is changing. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1330 "2025-11-21T20:41:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But just as alarming is that if the USA pulls all out, there is still no sign that Western Europe, despite nearly 4 years ongoing now, is ready or willing to truly pick up the slack and arm and fund Ukraine to the gills. While they could do a lot more than they are, Europe in aggregate has provided more aid to Ukraine than the US has in every category - cash, military hardware, and refugee support. Admittedly that is biased significantly towards Eastern and Nordic countries, but the UK, the Netherlands, and Germany are all pretty high up on the $/GDP lists. > **[Ukraine Support Tracker - A Database of Military, Financial and Humanitarian...](https://www.kielinstitut.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)** > > The Ukraine Support Tracker lists and quantifies military, financial and humanitarian aid promised by governments to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1331 "2025-11-21T23:07:57Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > So the worst is coming true. With Trump’s plan, Russia wins everything, and Ukraine loses everything. > > Russia will keep all the land it has conquered, and be given more for free. > Ukraine loses some of what it has, and gains absolutely nothing. They have to cede land, reduce the size of their army and not join Nato. > And there isn’t even any commitment from Russia not to attack again > > A very, very sad ending. I am mystified how anyone could ever have expected anything else from the Putin-trump Axis of Evil. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What ending? Nothing has ended. Idiots and clowns are trying to spread idiocy and clownery and there’s not a shred of evidence that Europe and Ukraine are going to cooperate. I completely agree that nothing will end here until / unless the EU or Ukraine folds too. I hope that increasingly slender reed holds. I truly do. I’m not hugely optimistic about it. I can see trump essentially declaring economic war on the EU because they’re not supporting his ego-project “peace plan” (read “surrender document”). Tariffs or sanctions on all countries who support Ukraine, etc. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1332 "2025-11-21T23:27:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This could be desperation by Putin. We’re already seeing many, many signs their economy is hugely struggling. For example, the recent news that [Russia is selling some of its gold reserves.](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/11/20/russias-central-bank-starts-selling-physical-gold-from-reserves-a91192) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1333 "2025-11-22T02:31:23Z")
I believe Volodymyr Zelensky needs to hear a strong, unified statement from the European countries denouncing the Trump-Putin plan. Ukraine has a very tough decision to make. Volodymyr Zelensky needs more then a few muttered assurances of support from Europe to tell Trump to pound sand. That’s a big risk. A lot depends on how well weapons are stockpiled in Ukraine. I remember Biden’s last act pushed forward a massive weapons package for Ukraine. Hoping they could survive Trumps 4 years of power. Did Ukraine actually get those weapons and supplies? How quickly would losing US support end Ukraine’s Patriot air defense capabilities? The Patriots are useless without the missiles. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1334 "2025-11-22T02:54:21Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Ukraine has a very tough decision to make. Ukraine is in a very tough situation, but the decision is easy. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1335 "2025-11-22T08:28:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I am mystified how anyone could ever have expected anything else from the Putin-trump Axis of Evil. Well, Trump could have last talked to someone who was pro-Ukraine. But yeah, pretty unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1336 "2025-11-22T08:59:08Z")
Be that as it may, even if the United States had vanished totally from the picture, there is no reason why Western+Central+Eastern Europe and its $19 trillion GDP should not have long since decisively turned the tide against Russia and its paltry $2 trillion GDP, budget-wise. Ukraine isn’t even needing _complex_ armament of any sort to win this war - simple one-way drones of the Shahed type would be huge. There is no reason or excuse why the rest of Europe, given a nearly 4 year long run up time to get things spooled up now, couldn’t be giving Ukraine something like 100,000 Shahed equivalents per month. The ugly truth is that most of Europe either 1) still is holding out absurd hope that Trump and MAGA will have a change of mind and start supporting Ukraine more again or 2) really just don’t care about Ukraine all that much. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1337 "2025-11-22T09:13:36Z")
My takeaway from Zelenskyy’s address to the nation on Frieday 21 November: [https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/yednist-potribna-nam-yak-nikoli-abi-v-nashomu-domi-buv-dosto-101493](https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/yednist-potribna-nam-yak-nikoli-abi-v-nashomu-domi-buv-dosto-101493) Ukraine cannot neither afford to accept the 28 points plan as is, > Either the loss of our dignity or the risk of losing a key partner. Either the difficult 28 points, or an extremely hard winter – the hardest yet – and the dangers that follow. A life without freedom, without dignity, without justice. And that we trust someone who has already attacked us twice. nor can Ukraine afford to reject it outright > But one thing is certain: we will not give the enemy reasons to claim that Ukraine doesn’t want peace, that it is sabotaging the process, and that it is Ukraine that is not ready for diplomacy. That will not happen. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1338 "2025-11-22T09:22:26Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > there is no reason why Western+Central+Eastern Europe and its $19 trillion GDP should not have long since decisively turned the tide against Russia and its paltry $2 trillion GDP, budget-wise. Russia also has a lot of nuclear weapons. How do you turn that tide decisively without risking their turning to the nuclear option? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1339 "2025-11-22T09:25:43Z")
You deploy British and French troops to the front. Get some skin in the game. Make it a standoff against 2 nuclear powers. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1340 "2025-11-22T13:13:17Z")
You turn the tide by calling the bluff. Every time Putin makes a nuclear threat, calmly laugh and say “grow up,” and remind him that the United States spends $60 billion each year just maintaining its nuclear arsenal and there is no way Russia, with its corruption and low funds, has done anywhere near that level of maintenance over the past few decades. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1341 "2025-11-22T13:35:07Z")
The situation gets uglier by the day. Zelenskyy is headed for a major confrontation with Trump. Unless he can find a way to say No and still appear willing to negotiate for peace. It appears Ukraine is beginning that negotiation process already. Link [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-meet-us-switzerland-discuss-ending-war-2025-11-22/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-meet-us-switzerland-discuss-ending-war-2025-11-22/) Link [US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future | Ukraine | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting) > [@](#): > > US officials have told Nato allies they expect to push president Volodymyr Zelenskyy into [agreeing to a peace deal in the coming days](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/21/zelenskyy-says-ukraine-faces-most-difficult-moment-as-trump-pushes-plan-to-end-war), under the threat that if Kyiv does not sign, it will face a much worse deal in future. > > The US army secretary, Dan Driscoll, briefed ambassadors from [Nato](https://www.theguardian.com/world/nato) nations at a meeting in Kyiv late on Friday, after talks with Zelenskyy and taking a phone call from the White House. “No deal is perfect, but it must be done sooner rather than later,” he told them, according to one person who was present. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2025, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349/1342 "2025-11-22T13:59:02Z")
This is mostly performative nonsense – I think it means very little. Zelensky is playing the game and there’s no reason to believe he feels any significant pressure – the US is already not helping Ukraine much at all, so they don’t have much leverage; similarly, Russia is already doing everything short of nukes to destroy Ukraine, and failing; if Russia thought they could do better than the deal by continuing to fight, then they wouldn’t want a deal. No one who wants this deal has any significant leverage with which to use for pressue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-the-regional-situation/995349.md?page=68)