# Russia may be about to invade Ukraine. {Russia has invaded as of Feb 24-2022} **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [April 9, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699 "2021-04-09T20:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/541 "2022-02-16T21:46:21Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > It plays well in Russia thanks to the actions of Ukrainian nationalists during World War II who, in fact, _did_ engage in genocide. As opposed to the Soviet Russians who perpetrated genocide against ethnic Ukrainians both before and after the war?? Actual, real, and quite nasty genocide? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/542 "2022-02-16T21:51:18Z")
> [@XT](#): > > As opposed to the Soviet Russians who perpetrated genocide against ethnic Ukrainians both before and after the war?? What’s your point? Ukrainians siding with the Nazis and enthusiastically participating in the Holocaust doesn’t rise to your definition of genocide? Like Americans, Russians are much better at remembering the sins of their adversaries than they are at remembering their own. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/543 "2022-02-16T21:55:02Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > What’s your point? Ukrainians siding with the Nazis and enthusiastically participating in the Holocaust doesn’t rise to your definition of genocide? Like Americans, Russians are much better at remembering the sins of their adversaries than they are at remembering their own. Nearly 4 million Ukrainians were killed or starved to death in the 30’s, so it’s not that surprising that there was a backlash. My point is that there has been a hell of a lot more ethnic cleansing and genocide against ethnic Ukrainians by ethnic Russians than there was the other way around. This doesn’t justify what Ukrainian Nationalists did or didn’t do, of course, but it does put it in a different light which you didn’t seem to be doing. Yes, people generally recall the wrongs done to them and not the wrongs they do. We should remember and put both into context…as we should do for our own myriad wrongs our own countries and countrymen/women have done as well. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/544 "2022-02-16T21:57:09Z")
I think you completely ignored the first five words of my post: “It plays well in Russia…” ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/545 "2022-02-16T21:59:43Z")
> [@XT](#): > > so it’s not that surprising that there was a backlash. Murdering a million Ukrainian Jews is a weird way to lash back at Russians. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/546 "2022-02-16T22:00:24Z")
No, I focused on the last part. Of COURSE it plays well in Russia and with ethnic Russians. That’s because they don’t dwell on the difference in numbers or timeframes. As I said, it’s real, actual genocide, ethnic cleansing, and forced recolonization over decades verse ethnic cleansing on a much lower scale during a very compressed timeframe…that didn’t last past the war and that there was plenty of backlash both during and after the war. Anyway, sorry for lashing out. It’s a bit of a sore subject with me, and I apologize. Hopefully, I won’t get another mod spanking. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/547 "2022-02-16T22:02:42Z")
True, though what I was getting at is that Ukrainian nationalists who joined with the NAZI were often reacting to anti-Soviet forces in their own communities. But it doesn’t excuse it, no…nothing does. And Ukrainians allying with Germany NAZI is definitely bad any way you look at it. ETA: And I was actually thinking more of the genocide against ethnic Russians, not really factoring in the Jewish Genocide which I mainly associated with the NAZI with some ethnic Ukrainian support. I know that a lot of the anger by ethnic Russians wrt genocide in Ukraine is more about what they did to Russians, not Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/548 "2022-02-16T22:30:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Anyway, sorry for lashing out. No problem. I’m probably a little triggered myself by a documentary I just watched about the Einsatzgruppen. Ukraine was one place where the Germans barely needed to lift a finger to wipe out its entire Jewish population…except to film it for posterity. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/549 "2022-02-16T22:37:06Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > No problem. I’m probably a little triggered myself by a documentary I just watched about the Einsatzgruppen. Ukraine was one place where the Germans barely needed to lift a finger to wipe out its entire Jewish population…except to film it for posterity. I can see that, though remember that when the Red Army came back into Ukraine, and despite all of the really nasty stuff the ethnic Russians had done to ethnic Ukrainians, over 4 million Ukrainians jumped to join the Red Army…so, we aren’t talking about even a majority of ethnic Ukrainians. Also, remember that it was still Germans in charge of Ukraine, and still German soldiers who were there as well. This doesn’t excuse those nationalistic Ukrainians who joined with Hitler…far from it. But just put it all into context. Anway, I’ll leave it there. Thank you for accepting my apology for getting tense on this and I definitely see where you are coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/550 "2022-02-16T23:58:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The Ukrainians are still dealing with the aftermath of one blown-up Soviet nuclear plant on their territory, they may not be eager to blow up another they might wind up downwind of. Also, I could see the Russians trying to twist “they blew up a nuclear plant on our territory killing/irradiating our citizens” into “we can justify dropping a nuclear bomb on them”, > > Can we just say “no” to nuclear anything? Please? OK, how about taking out their Black Sea oil terminals? Or will that demand a nuclear response as well? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/551 "2022-02-17T00:03:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > OK, how about taking out their Black Sea oil terminals? Or will that demand a nuclear response as well? I don’t see why it would. I just don’t think it’s a good idea for anyone to drag nukes of any sort into the battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/552 "2022-02-17T00:06:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > OK, how about taking out their Black Sea oil terminals? Or will that demand a nuclear response as well? Well, the thing about that is, I don’t think Ukraine wants to do anything that would make them seem like they are the aggressor. Additionally, I can’t see Ukraine doing anything that would waste their small air force in an afternoon unless they thought they were actually in an existential struggle, and the action would do something to avert that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/553 "2022-02-17T00:23:00Z")
So they should keep their planes on the ground to be destroyed without a fight? Inconceivable. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/554 "2022-02-17T00:30:14Z")
US government is saying that Russia is still growing the number of forces at the border: > **[US says Russia has added troops at border despite pullback claims](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/594639-us-says-russia-has-added-troops-at-border-despite-pullback-claims/)** > > A senior Biden administration official said Wednesday that Russia has added as many as 7,000 troops at the border with Ukraine, characterizing claims by Moscow that it was withdrawing forces as “fa… Now, to be fair, it could be that there were troops already on the way who needed to get there and resupply before they could go back and most of the troops already there are still busy packing up so in theory… _in theory_, Russia could have given the draw down order and still have net positive troop movement towards Ukraine. I’m not really an expert in how long it takes a large military force to get up and move, when they had no expectation of doing so anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/555 "2022-02-17T00:44:02Z")
Yeah, Russia may be doing a sleight of hand where they add 15,000 troops but withdraw 7,000, and try to get the media to focus only on the “withdrew 7,000” part. I’ll admit, I have a somewhat morbid historical fascination if the situation goes hot. It would be the closest thing we’d ever seen to as if the 1950s-1980s Cold War had gone hot. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/556 "2022-02-17T01:08:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So they should keep their planes on the ground to be destroyed without a fight? Inconceivable. No. But I have started wondering if things might be reaching a point where Ukraine might benefit from having an air base in a NATO country to keep their air forces out of the way of Russian attacks while they are on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/557 "2022-02-17T01:37:00Z")
If Ukraine moves their air force to a neutral country, that country must then intern the air crew until the end of hostilities. Either way, their air forces would be of no further use to them while the conflict was going on. If the neutral country allowed the air force to operate from a base in their country, that would be considered an act of war. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/558 "2022-02-17T01:52:53Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > No. But I have started wondering if things might be reaching a point where Ukraine might benefit from having an air base in a NATO country to keep their air forces out of the way of Russian attacks while they are on the ground. Iran did Iraq that “favor”. I don’t think Iraq ever got their planes back, though. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/559 "2022-02-17T02:05:50Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So they should keep their planes on the ground to be destroyed without a fight? Inconceivable. Well, it seems you’re excluding a lot of options. If I was in charge of their air force, I’d prefer to concentrate it on blunting what we saw as the main invasion force, even if that was their last act. It seems that would be a better use than some symbolic attack. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699/560 "2022-02-17T03:35:09Z")
Why is that better? Doolittle’s raid was symbolic, and provided a powerful inspiration to those fighting Japan. If Russia goes all in, Ukranian citizens will be plunged into an asymmetrical insurgency for a long time, perhaps symbolism is the best use of a small air force. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-may-be-about-to-invade-ukraine-russia-has-invaded-as-of-feb-24-2022/939699.md?page=29)