# Russia not finding Alaska **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 28, 2001, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121 "2001-02-28T00:00:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2001, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/21 "2001-03-01T23:11:19Z")
Yes, the apparent Russian support in the Civil War (yes, it was the Civil War, and, yes, the story about the “good-will tour” that was actually a sleazy way to get into a warm-water port is true) was a factor in the Alaska sale, though it might have gone through anyway. A major factor in the Book of Mormon was the common racist assumption that the Mound Builders culture couldn’t possibly have been “filthy redskin savages”, an idea the LDS was still pushing in the 70’s, and, for all I know, still do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/22 "2001-03-02T03:48:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Akatsukami \* > The palaeoanthropology of North America is not entirely clear in its upper reaches. However, it is now generally accepted that there were at least three major pre-Columbian migrations of North America, resulting in three major population groups distinguished by linguistics, dentistry, and genetics around 1500 CE. > > The first migration was about 9000-10,000 BCE, and consisted of peoples from Alaska (relatively ice-free due to low precipitation) and Beringia (the land bridge now submerged under the Bering Straits), who came there in turn from northeastern Siberia (there are camps in Kamchatka from about 14,000 BCE very similar to what we see in North America a few thousand years later). These people are referred to, logically enough as Proto-Amerinds. They are lacking almost entirely in type B blood (believed to be a relatively recent east Asian mutation), but have a very high instance of type A. There may have been an earlier pre-Columbian migration from Europe as well. Recent genetic studies on 11,000 year old remains in Illinois have discovered haplogroup X-DNA, a mitochondrial variant whose origins are unique to Europe. It simply does not exist in east Asian and Siberian populations, and exists today in approximately 20,000 American Indians. The more recent Kennewick Man on the west coast you mentioned is speculated to be European as well. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2001, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/23 "2001-03-02T10:46:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > There may have been an earlier pre-Columbian migration from Europe as well. No. Not from Europe. I know of no support for that. greater diversity from Asia, yes. > [@](#): > > Recent genetic studies on 11,000 year old remains in Illinois have discovered haplogroup X-DNA, a mitochondrial variant whose origins are unique to Europe. Hmm, do you have further citation? I’d like to take a look at this. However, based on my general knowledge, you’re drawing a marginally incorrect conclusion. Presence in modern Europe does not mean that its presence in an 11ky old skeletal remains derives directly from Europe: we could be seeing (i) convergence (ii) population xfer through Bering straight, but of the type which contributed your referenced trait to Europe (insofar as we can not tell where a trait originated). Given other signs of a complicated mixing through the mid-Asian continent, this explanation is to be favored in my opinion. > [@](#): > > The more recent Kennewick Man on the west coast you mentioned is speculated to be European as well. Old news, K man is not Euro. In fact the speculation was withdrawn early on because (a) its inaccurate, his original finder felt he had a caucasoid phenotype --racial thinking led to the Euro id through false idea of Euro-Caucasoid identity (b) further examination led to attribution to East Asian populations. Testing indicates, as memory serves, affiliation with Ainu like asian populations. He appears to be simply to belong to a divergent population whose phenotype was caucasoid. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2001, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/24 "2001-03-02T14:35:50Z")
Eh, **Irishman,** Washington, **D.C.** 😉 > [@](#): > > Recent genetic studies on 11,000 year old remains in Illinois have discovered haplogroup X-DNA, a mitochondrial variant whose origins are unique to Europe. Whoa! I LIVE in Illinois. Gotta get the Google… Hmm…widely repeated and linked on the Web. As usual, takes on it range from the strictly scientific “just the facts, ma’am” to the truly strange, “This proves Europeans were here before the Indians!” Hmm…all I can find is the following snip, widely repeated in many different kinds of places, but no original source. > [@](#): > > Recent genetic samples from remains in Illinois show that the rare European DNA was around centuries before European exploration. Today, haplogroup X is found in about 20,000 American Indians. Also, the [Ohio Sinkhole Skeleton story](http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/skeleton_ohio001127.html) comes up frequently, but it’s very strange. The AP headline reads, > [@](#): > > Sinkhole Skeleton–Skeleton’s DNA Could Shed Light on American Migrations but the article itself doesn’t mention any skeleton–all they found were tools. > [@](#): > > V A N L U E, Ohio, Nov. 27 — The discovery of prehistoric tools from an Ohio cave is one of several finds that has scientists questioning the identity of settlers thought to have moved in 11,000 years ago. > > A just completed excavation of Sheriden Cave in Wyandot County, 100 miles southwest of Cleveland, revealed tools made from flaked stone and bone. The items are scheduled to go on display next year at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. > > Kent State University archaeologist Kenneth Tankersley, who led the excavation over the past four years, said definite answers won’t come until someone finds an Ice Age skeleton and the DNA is tested. So they _didn’t find_ a skeleton, just tools. I think the AP writer screwed up. The confusion isn’t helped any by the fact that a paragraph heading later in the article says “Skeleton Has Scientists Jumpy”. I want to scream, “There’s no skeleton! Only tools!” Well, we know we’re not dealing with a serious scientific type here. > [@](#): > > Archaeologists since 1996 have found genetic indications of several migrations, along with evidence that people came from Polynesia, regions near Japan and even western Europe. No kidding! You mean some Americans might have originally come from western Europe?! :rolleyes: Eventually the usual snip is repeated, but all it’s tied to is pure speculation: > [@](#): > > Recent genetic samples from remains in Illinois show that the rare European DNA was around centuries before European exploration. Today, haplogroup X is found in about 20,000 American Indians. And God bless the honest Ohio locals, whose voices even the AP Pulitzer wannabe couldn’t disguise with his mounds of sound bite fluff. > [@](#): > > Tankersley and Brian Redmond, head of archaeology at the Cleveland Natural History Museum, have been seeking clues about the first colonizers from the cave, which is hidden 50 feet below cornfields. > “To find human remains of that age, 11,000 years old, is really, really rare, and I don’t think there are any in that cavern. We would have found them,” Redmond said. But he added, “Who knows what may turn up in the future. We’re certain it was a camping area.” > Farmers and landowners fear they could be tied up in litigation by preservationists and Indian tribes if old bones are disturbed. > “We know of places where you could probably find human remains up here,” said Keith Hendricks, a Hancock County sheriff’s deputy whose family owns the sinkhole where the Ice Age relics have been recovered. “But the problem is you’d be opening a Pandora’s box. It’s a sensitive issue.” Translated: go away. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2001, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/25 "2001-03-03T17:14:25Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. That would be the Revolutionary War, not the Civil War. > 2. 1867 is far too late for Washington to have been involved. Washington died before 1800. 1867 was after the Civil War. What took so long? Not sure if you’re being ironic or not here, Irish. Here in the North we only had one Revolutionary War, but I realize opinions differ down South. The Russian diplomatic support I was referring to was during the American Civil War which ended in 1865. The Washington I was referring to was the seat of the United States government, not the man named George. I agree with the people that say the United States would have bought Alaska regardless of Russia’s actions during the war. My suggestion is only that the Russian support may have made the American payment more generous that it would have been otherwise. And by no means am I stating this happened as a fact; the theory is based on other people’s interpretations of passages in the personal papers of some of the people involved in the sale. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/26 "2001-03-05T01:03:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > > There may have been an earlier pre-Columbian migration from Europe as well. > > No. Not from Europe. I know of no support for that. greater diversity from Asia, yes. At the National Library of Medicine, I found [abstract on mtDNA haplogroupX: An ancient link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9837837&dopt=Abstract)Next to the display tab, scroll down for _abstract_ and click on display. Also [mtDNA Analysis of a Prehistoric Oneota Population:Implication for the Peopling of the World](http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v62n5/970850/970850.html) For the archaeological evidence (Solutrean -Clovis) supporting the Atlantic crossing theory and reference to y chromosome studies for European origin case, We have a report by [Michael A. Arbuthnot](http://www.teamatlantis.com/yucatan_test/research_iberia.html#top) Of course there is a lively debate about the European connection, but the Greenberg Zegura Turner Theory(circa 1986)for three migrations presented here by **Akatsukami** is no longer accepted to the extent it once was. This is refuted in my second link. A single migration for the Asian connection is currently being seriously considered due to the age of recent archaeological digs in the east. > [@](#): > > Recent genetic studies on 11,000 year old remains in Illinois have discovered haplogroup X-DNA, a mitochondrial variant whose origins are unique to Europe. Mea culpa. I fell for it. Thanks **DDG**. I think the Illinois reference is for the 700 year old (not 11k) Oneota individuals unearthed at Norris Farms, the basis for my second link, which although indicates the 5th haplogroup is precolumbian, does not stipulate a European connection. > [@](#): > > Hmm, do you have further citation? I’d like to take a look at this. However, based on my general knowledge, you’re drawing a marginally incorrect conclusion. Presence in modern Europe does not mean that its presence in an 11ky old skeletal remains derives directly from Europe: we could be seeing (i) convergence (ii) population xfer through Bering straight, but of the type which contributed your referenced trait to Europe (insofar as we can not tell where a trait originated). Three reasons for suggesting direct European transfer are the claims that haplogroup X has not been found in eastern Asia. I would assume that traces would be left behind during a migration. Secondly, if I am reading the Table II referenced in the second link correctly, then the highest concentration of this 5th haplogroup, (other), is in the east. Mohawk, Chipewa, and Ojibwa. Thirdly, the oldest clovis culture appears in the East, and this culture appears similar to another earlier culture in Europe. > [@](#): > > _Collounsbury_ > Old news, K man is not Euro. In fact the speculation was withdrawn early on because (a) its inaccurate, his original finder felt he had a caucasoid phenotype --racial thinking led to the Euro id through false idea of Euro-Caucasoid identity (b) further examination led to attribution to East Asian populations. Testing indicates, as memory serves, affiliation with Ainu like asian populations. He appears to be simply to belong to a divergent population whose phenotype was caucasoid. \*\* As I understand it, testing/research was halted due to an injunction by the Federal government, and efforts by scientists have been ongoing for resumption. What has never been mentioned and what I would find most interesting to pursue is why couldn’t haplogroup X be a result of European/Dorset and Thule interaction and/or settlement attempts by the Norse farther south resulting in disappearence due to carrying off the womenfolk or sale of daughters or marriage… There is almost 500 years of pre-Columbian Greenland/Norse involvement with the indigeneous people of the Eastern seaboard, so I find it hard to believe that there was no genetic transfer , that couldn’t be picked up 500 years later as a small haplogroup. The latest arrival for haplogroup X in north america is stated as 12,000 years, but I have no idea if that assertion is strong enough to preclude a Norse connection. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/28 "2001-03-05T05:07:30Z")
[http://www.stmary.k12.la.us/holidays/columbus.htm](http://www.stmary.k12.la.us/holidays/columbus.htm) > [@](#): > > Columbus Mythbusters > by Joseph M. Laufer > International Columbian Quincentenary Alliance > P.O. Box 1492Columbus, NJ 08022 > > MYTH: Columbus died a pauper, in chains, in a Spanish prison. > FACT: Despite the fact that the Spanish crown retracted some of the privileges promised to Columbus, he was a relatively rich man at the time of his death. Although he returned to Spain in chains in 1500 after his third voyage, the King and Queen apologized for the misunderstanding and had them removed. Columbus died quietly at the age of 55 in Valladolid, Spain, on May 20, 1506 in his own apartment attended by family and friends. [http://www.aoc.gov/art/coldoors/coldoor8.htm](http://www.aoc.gov/art/coldoors/coldoor8.htm) > [@](#): > > Columbus in Chains (1500). Columbus shows his chains to the crowd as he is about to go aboard the vessel that was to take him back to Spain after his third voyage. Don Francisco de Bobadilla, who was sent to replace Columbus and to investigate charges against him, is pointing to his instructions. After Columbus was cleared of the charges, he returned for the last time to the new world in 1502. He was cleared of the charges and set off in 1502 on his fourth voyage. Presumably he did not make this voyage in chains, and presumably the chains remained off until he died in 1506. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/29 "2001-03-05T05:31:57Z")
The link that does say “European DNA–yes!” seems to have an awfully small sample. > [@](#): > > mtDNA haplogroup X: An ancient link between Europe/Western Asia and North America? > > Brown MD, Hosseini SH, Torroni A, Bandelt HJ, Allen JC, Schurr TG, Scozzari R, Cruciani F, Wallace DC > > To investigate the origins, diversity, and continental relationships of this haplogroup, we performed mtDNA high-resolution RFLP and complete control region (CR) sequence analysis on 22 putative Native American haplogroup X and 14 putative European haplogroup X mtDNAs. They only sampled 22 Indians and 14 Europeans? And then they use words like “appears to be”, “estimates”, and “assumed”, and finish up with this grand waffle: > [@](#): > > To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry. “…has not been unambiguously identified”? Translated as, “well, we can’t really find haplogroup X in Asia, so we’re going to assume for the sake of argument that it’s an exclusively European trait”. I dunno, it all sounds pretty speculative to me. But thanks for the Oneota link, it was neat. Just think, right here in Illinois… I will quote a bit here in case the link goes flooey, for future generations to use in _their_ Google searches. 🙂 > [@](#): > > mtDNA Analysis of a Prehistoric Oneota Population: Implications for the Peopling of the New World > > Anne C. Stone and Mark Stoneking > > Department of Anthropology, Pennsylvania State University, University Park > > Received December 22, 1997; accepted for publication March 18, 1998; electronically published April 10, 1998. > > Summary > > ``` > mtDNA was successfully extracted from 108 individuals from the Norris Farms Oneota, a prehistoric Native American population, to compare the mtDNA diversity from a pre-Columbian population with contemporary Native American and Asian mtDNA lineages and to examine hypotheses about the peopling of the New World. Haplogroup and hypervariable region I sequence data indicate that the lineages from haplogroups A, B, C, and D are the most common among Native Americans but that they were not the only lineages brought into the New World from Asia. The mtDNA evidence does not support the three-wave hypothesis of migration into the New World but rather suggests a single "wave" of people with considerable mtDNA diversity that exhibits a signature of expansion 23,000--37,000 years ago. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2001, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/30 "2001-03-05T05:39:45Z")
Dang, left something out, on the Thule/Greenland genes. It’s my understanding that when they test mtDNA, they also have a way to check its “clock” to see how long it’s been passed down from mother to child. That’s how they got the 150,000 year date for “Eve”. So I’m assuming that both sets of researchers did that. And actually, the Oneota data came from skeletons from an Indian cemetery dated to around 1300 A.D. The other study, the abstract didn’t specify whether their sampling was from skeletons or whatever, and where they got them from. But I would assume that they would have checked the “clock”, and so any contamination from Greenland Viking genes would have shown up as too recent to be within the 25,000 B.P. dates they’re looking at. ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Clark\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_K)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2001, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/31 "2001-03-06T05:10:31Z")
Hate to be snippy about this, Duck Duck Goose, but I am a mild-mannered reporter and I take these things seriously. The original headline on the AP story said, “Scientists piecing together puzzle of first Ohioans.” The misleading “skeleton” headline very likely was written by a copy editor at the local paper where you read the article. In addition, the original AP story carries no byline, so it was almost certainly a “pick-up” \_ that is, a rewrite of a story that appeared in one of the AP’s member newspapers. So you have less-than-scientifically-rigorous story that was filtered through the AP and then topped with a poor headline to produce a confusing report \_ not a proud moment for journalism but still not a “Pulitzer wannabe” trying to mislead readers. I apologize for the hijack, but even men of steel can get defensive about things. ---
**Author:** ![Huntingdoginthedoghouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Huntingdoginthedoghouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huntingdoginthedoghouse)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/32 "2001-03-08T05:18:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\*He {Columbus} was cleared of the charges and set off in 1502 on his fourth voyage. Presumably he did not make this voyage in chains, and presumably the chains remained off until he died in 1506. \*\* Actually, the chains were put on at his own request! Chains were called for by the naval rule book, but they weren’t going to use them, because he was a person who had met the Queen more than once and they were afraid of offending her. The guy was such a grandstander that he insisted, to bring shame to his accusers. Neither the Queen or King were impressed by this, and he was still subjected to official inquiry before coming into favor again. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/33 "2001-03-08T13:30:20Z")
Sorry, **Clark,** didn’t mean to step on any journalistic toes there! Why, journalists are some of my favorite people–I rank them right up there with child molesters and politicians on my list of “kewl people to know”! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Clark\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_K)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/34 "2001-03-09T05:27:33Z")
I find that it saves time and confusion just to think of reporters, politicians and child molesters as a single group! ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2001, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/35 "2001-03-10T03:57:51Z")
I saw an account that someone had discovered Chinese anchors off the coast of California that dated from the 9th Cent. AD. In all likelihood, the Siberians probably jetted around Alaska, etc. all the time, but nobody in Moscow gave a hoot about it because it took so dang long to get to Siberia. Besides, what would tell them there was to look at, snow? They had plenty there and didn’t need anymore. In one of Cecil’s columns he mentions the fact that had the sailing times been slightly longer when the English colonized America, the language spoken by the colonists and the mother country would have diverged so much in a few decades that they would have become two distinct languages. So what would be the point in going all that way if you’re descendants couldn’t talk to you without the use of a translator. Not to mention the fact that on average those people only lived to be roughly 40-45 years old. A trip of two or three years is a big chunk of ones life to be spend away from everything you hold near and dear. Look at Ulysses, he went a way for his weekend gaurd duty and didn’t make it home until almost 20 years later! ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2001, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/36 "2001-03-10T14:17:47Z")
_cough_ [http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf021/sf021p03.htm](http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf021/sf021p03.htm) > [@](#): > > . If so, then, how about those stone anchors found in shallow waters off Palos Verdes, California? They are legitimate Chinese anchors all right, but they are modern, having been lost by local California fishermen of Chinese extraction. History tells how Chinese immigrants quickly applied the techniques of their native land to the California Coast. [http://www.uiowa.edu/~anthro/webcourse/lost/diffvids.htm](http://www.uiowa.edu/~anthro/webcourse/lost/diffvids.htm) > [@](#): > > The second segment looks at the discovery off the California coast, of stones with holes that are very much like stone anchors used by the ancient Chinese. Some suggest that the anchors indicate Pre-Columbian exploration of the New World by the Chinese. Examination by a geologist indicates that the stone is of local origin. Search of records indicates that Chinese immigrant fishermen in California made the stone anchors during the last century. Sorry. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2001, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/37 "2001-03-10T15:57:47Z")
I’m a bit behind on work and other projects, but I wanted to note I have some comments on the articles re NatAm descent when I get time. However, Viking “genes” would not throw off the clock or whatnot per DDG’s later comments. But I do see some other concerns in re the second article (which we only have the abstract for). Also re Kennewick man. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2001, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/38 "2001-03-10T21:04:09Z")
Ducky, thanks for setting me straight on the anchors. I’m not really surprised that they would be found to be of local origin. Still, if I’m not mistaken (and I’d have to do a lot of digging in the assorted piles of trash, which I should be doing anyways as I promised myself that I’d clean house today, but I haven’t because I’ve been reading these boards all day long, and am now rambling) there have been other cases of artifacts found in one part of the world which date from a time when they shouldn’t have been known to be there. Such as the purported discovery of tobacco leaves in an Egyptian mummy. Anyone know of any other oddball things like that? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2001, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121/39 "2001-03-10T22:35:38Z")
A brief note: First in re “tobacco” and mummies, there was a recent thread in this very forum dissecting such claims. Resume: the traces, not leaves but chemical signatures, are inconclusive and may stem from contamination and/or confusion with similar/same old world alcaloids. Search on cocaine mummies. For Grienspice: I dug around in my files and found this little link saved in my folders: [http://www.cr.nps.gov/aad/kennewick/powell\_rose.htm](http://www.cr.nps.gov/aad/kennewick/powell_rose.htm) I do seem to have mis-recalled the source of data --it was not genetic analysis-- however the basic thrust of my comments were correct. I will try to find some time in the near future for a comment on the X haplagroup question (which remains controversial as the first article you referenced discusses in the body of the text) in depth, but let me reiterate, it is a grave error to view this as “European” in origin. In any case, I need to prepare some materials… (PS: DDG, the clock issue is a serious question by the way, there is a great deal of discussion about this. My comments were just re the issue of Scandinavian “contamination” – given the brief and essentially insignificant nature of Scandinavian contact as documented to date by various sources this is really a non-concern.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-not-finding-alaska/56121.md?page=1)