# Russia/US UNSC Deal Reached - what it it means for masterful US President and Sec of State legacy. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852 "2013-09-14T17:20:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/181 "2013-09-20T19:08:38Z")
Still, had we elected John McCain, Syria would be in a sharp state of apprehension and fear. As well as Russia! And Belgium. Gabon. Upper Volta… ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/182 "2013-09-20T19:13:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What is partisan is giving Obama credit for this outcome. Partisan and laughable. Unless the outcome is bad, in which case you will gladly give him every bit of credit. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/183 "2013-09-20T19:16:04Z")
The negotiating went something like this: June 2012 in Mexico Barry suggests to Vladi let’s figure out a way to get those CW out of this civil war mess. Vladi says **Nyet Nyet Nyet**. September 2013 St Petersburg Russia. Obama says to Vladi your dickhead has gassed Syrian babies. It’s time to get CW out of this conflict or I’m gonna Dubya your ass. To which Vladi replies. **Nyet**. Kerry in London raises slightest public suggestion strikes could be halted if Syria agrees to get rid of CW. Putin jumped on the phone to reporters: Da! da! Da! A thousand times Da! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/184 "2013-09-20T23:03:12Z")
Well… all of this adulation of Obama might be premature. Now that the alleged "CW sites"will be swarming with UN inspectors, Obama cannot launch bombing attacks (for fear of killing them). Perfect cover for Assad’s forces! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/185 "2013-09-20T23:29:07Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Well… all of this adulation of Obama might be premature. Now that the alleged "CW sites"will be swarming with UN inspectors, Obama cannot launch bombing attacks (for fear of killing them). > Perfect cover for Assad’s forces! The adulation for Obama has nothing to do with bombing Syrian troops. It’s because the inspectors were invited in to secure and transfer or destroy CW. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/186 "2013-09-21T01:00:31Z")
Premature adulation? Nope, not gonna touch that one. There are limits. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/187 "2013-09-21T01:31:34Z")
For you? Since when? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/188 "2013-09-21T02:14:38Z")
Eight o’clock? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/189 "2013-09-21T06:22:49Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Obama gets credit for getting Syria and Russia to agree to dismantle an arsenal of chemical weapons in the midst of a civil war where terrorist groups are involved in the fighting. > > And you are right, Obama accomplished that without needing to use military force. Its so cute that you actually believe this is going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/190 "2013-09-21T06:36:14Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The negotiating went something like this: > > June 2012 in Mexico Barry suggests to Vladi let’s figure out a way to get those CW out of this civil war mess. Vladi says > > **Nyet Nyet Nyet**. > > September 2013 St Petersburg Russia. > > Obama says to Vladi your dickhead has gassed Syrian babies. It’s time to get CW out of this conflict or I’m gonna Dubya your ass. To which Vladi replies. > > **Nyet**. > Kerry in London raises slightest public suggestion strikes could be halted if Syria agrees to get rid of CW. > > Putin jumped on the phone to reporters: > Da! da! Da! A thousand times Da! wow. I think it’s more realistic to believe that Obama stuck his foot in his mouth and was on the hook for sending an unbelievably small number of missiles toward Syria to save face. Putin didn’t want any unbelievably small annoyances to interfere with Assad’s job of killing his detractors and gave Obama a face saving exit knowing the US media would forget about it in a month. In return for this he got Obama to promise not to forward any UN sanctions involving the use of force no matter what transpires. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/191 "2013-09-21T08:14:17Z")
I mis-counted. It’s already been 7 days. [And Obama has already caved](http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-syria-deadline-20130919,0,3368673.story). “The State Department signaled that it would not insist that Syrian President Bashar Assad produce the list Saturday, the end of a seven-day period spelled out in the framework deal that Washington and Moscow announced last weekend in Geneva.” Falling from the news cycle in 3… 2… 1… ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/192 "2013-09-21T11:00:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I mis-counted. It’s already been 7 days. [And Obama has already caved](http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-syria-deadline-20130919,0,3368673.story). > > “The State Department signaled that it would not insist that Syrian President Bashar Assad produce the list Saturday, the end of a seven-day period spelled out in the framework deal that Washington and Moscow announced last weekend in Geneva.” > > Falling from the news cycle in 3… 2… 1… They have already turned over a list. If you read into all that has been disclosed, any delays thus far are coming from the indirection agency because of the suddenness of Putin and Assad from switching from a no to yes on dismantling Syria’s arsenal. It is caving when for decades you say No to the international community and suddenly say Yes. Obama’s position is not the one that changed. All caving has come from the Syria Russia side. Your trivial attempt to make something of this list delivery provides a humorous beginning to the weekend for most of us. Keep it up. Do you have more? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/193 "2013-09-21T11:51:34Z")
Magiver has not responded to my correction of what he has claimed: I guess my response stands: > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And NotfooledbyW has extolled the virtues of our dear leader’s diplomacy. So it’s GOING to happen. And we’ll be able to prove it because… well it’s just GOING to happen. Rest assured. -Originally Posted by Magiver. Nope you are wrong again. I am extolling the virtue of what has already happened. David Ignatius describes what happened. "“Russia has been drawn into a process of collecting and destroying Syria’s chemical arsenal. This has been a goal of U.S. policy for two years. It finally worked, thanks in part to Obama’s pledge to use military force to punish Syria if the Russians didn’t step up.” Yes. Putin was drawn into a process after the threat of force was announced and if the process ceases to function the threat of force is still ready to go. Obama did not surrender America’s cruise missile stockpile in the agreement that was reached. We still have them as far as I know. The diplomacy has already worked. And I believe the dismantling and destruction process will proceed and go well because Obama can be believed when he commits to a preference for diplomacy over war. -Ntfldbw [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/194 "2013-09-21T12:07:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > In return for this he got Obama to promise not to forward any UN sanctions involving the use of force no matter what transpires. Why don’t you know this following basic and well established fact: The UNSC cannot assign UN sanctions with the threat of force behind it against Syria or any regime in the entire world if one permanent member on the Security Council decided to veto it. Russia will never authorize UN inspections or sanctions against Syria if automatic use of force in in the resolution language. That is why it was not in the UNSC 1441 that was unanimously voted into place by the 15 members including Russia and France. That is contrary to what you believe I know, but you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/195 "2013-09-21T13:57:48Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Fantastic, everybody must admit that. Lets monitor how it goes. Your right. He should have played up to the world’s stereotype of the US and just shoot first and ask no questions later. That’s always worked out so well in the past hasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/196 "2013-09-21T14:55:57Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Magiver has not responded to my correction of what he has claimed: > > I guess my response stands: nothing stands. There is no list. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/197 "2013-09-21T14:58:38Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why don’t you know this following basic and well established fact: > > The UNSC cannot assign UN sanctions with the threat of force behind it against Syria or > any regime in the entire world if one permanent member on the Security Council decided to veto it. Russia will never authorize UN inspections or sanctions against Syria if automatic use of force in in the resolution language. > > That is why it was not in the UNSC 1441 that was unanimously voted into place by the 15 members including Russia and France. That is contrary to what you believe I know, but you are wrong. There is no mention of the use of force. As was agreed to. Putin got what he wanted which was UN agreement not to do so. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/198 "2013-09-21T15:02:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > wow. I think it’s more realistic to believe that Obama stuck his foot in his mouth and was on the hook for sending an unbelievably small number of missiles toward Syria to save face. Putin didn’t want any unbelievably small annoyances to interfere with Assad’s job of killing his detractors and gave Obama a face saving exit knowing the US media would forget about it in a month. In return for this he got Obama to promise not to forward any UN sanctions involving the use of force no matter what transpires. I have underlined the statement in Magiver’s argument above to show that Magiver agrees with my argument all along. First let’s recall what Magiver wrote on this thread earlier: > [@](#): > > The main objective of the op is to prove that a political endeavor with no internal public/political support and no international support is a stroke of genius. This was accomplished by forcing Putin to do his bidding to rid Syria of chemical weapons by 2014. All this was done with the threat of an unbelievably small use of force. -Magiver 09-18-2013 10:25 AM 261a1025 I have underlined what is relevant in Magiver’s September 18 comment. So here is Magiver’s fumble: Today he wrote using his own argument, “Putin didn’t want any unbelievably small annoyances \*\*to interfere \*\*with Assad’s job of killing his detractors” On September 18 Magiver wrote this to define my argument, “\*\*All this was done \*\*with the threat of an unbelievably small use of force.” So Magiver agrees with my argument. This is because Magiver admits that it was the ‘unbelievably small use of force’ that Putin didn’t want any “annoyances to interfere with Assad’s job of killing his detractors.” There is no way out for Magiver to explain how the diplomatic achievement of getting Putin and Assad to forswear the manufacture, storage and use of chemical weapons and admit officially they have them and to allow the international community to collect and destroy them, would have been accomplished if Obama had not gone out on a limb against his own public’s opinion and sickness of war because of Iraq, and declare his determination that a limited punitive strike was necessary against the Syrian regime. Magiver admits that Putin 'did not want the ‘annoyance’ that Obama’s military action would have provided. So Putin did an about face in the two year long negotiation over dismantling Assad’s CW arsenal. Obama wanted something and Putin reversed his entire negotiating position from no to yes and according to Magiver it was because he didn’t want Assad to be annoyed. So there you have have it. If Obama would have came out saying oh we should do something about this but we do not want to annoy Assad, and I probably can’t get my Congress or public to support it so I’m just going to stand back and let Assad use these CW on his own people because Senator Rand Paul wants diplomacy and peace to have a chance, then Putin would not have caved on this critical matter. The red line has been crossed but there’s nothing America can do about it and Senator Rand Paul is exactly right lets turn a blind eye to all this and give peace a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/199 "2013-09-21T15:17:09Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I have underlined what is relevant in Magiver’s September 18 comment. > So here is Magiver’s fumble: > > Today he wrote using his own argument, “Putin didn’t want any unbelievably small annoyances \*\*to interfere \*\*with Assad’s job of killing his detractors” > > On September 18 Magiver wrote this to define my argument, “\*\*All this was done \*\*with the threat of an unbelievably small use of force.” > So Magiver agrees with my argument. This is because Magiver admits that it was the ‘unbelievably small use of force’ that Putin didn’t want any “annoyances to interfere with Assad’s job of killing his detractors.” uh no, I don’t believe your argument. The “unbelievably small” use of force is a pointless exercise. No real harm would come of it. It doesn’t attempt to stop Assad from killing people. It’s as meaningless as the UN resolution that blames nobody and has no consequences. It’s a non-agreement that gets Obama off the hook from his original foot-in-mouth screw-up. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/200 "2013-09-21T15:17:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > nothing stands. There is no list. Have you seen the declaration? How do you know it contains no list? What has been described as submitted is lengthy, in Arabic and detailed. Do you think the list is Assad’s grandmothers favorite family Syrian recipes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=11)