# Russia/US UNSC Deal Reached - what it it means for masterful US President and Sec of State legacy. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852 "2013-09-14T17:20:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/601 "2014-01-09T13:49:49Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Now there’s a perfect example of scoffing gone bad. Could you please not repost things you haven’t read and don’t understand? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/602 "2014-01-09T14:57:24Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, because there’s no reasonable cause to assume I won’t arrive safely. Now, if I were driving through disputed territory in a particularly brutal civil war, the calculus changes dramatically. The safe or unsafe nature of the journey comes from the _outcome_, not the _intent_ behind it. Can you deny before setting out on your drive you claim can be done safely, the unlikely but possible intersection of fate between you and Rufus Riggins who is driving his 18 wheeler north when you are diving south and his breaks go out down hill and he loses control, crosses the median and runs over your safely driven car crushing it to smithereens and killing anyone riding safely in it? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/603 "2014-01-09T15:09:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Could you please not repost things you haven’t read and don’t understand? When all else fails in your argument accuse the other side of not understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/604 "2014-01-09T15:23:51Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Can you deny before setting out on your drive you claim can be done safely, the unlikely but possible intersection of fate between you and Rufus Riggins who is driving his 18 wheeler north when you are diving south and his breaks go out down hill and he loses control, crosses the median and runs over your safely driven car crushing it to smithereens and killing anyone riding safely in it? Sure, that’s unlikely but possible. What revelance does this have to anything? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/605 "2014-01-09T15:45:08Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > When all else fails in your argument accuse the other side of not understanding. It’s not an accusation; it’s an observation. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/606 "2014-01-09T19:55:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Sure, that’s unlikely but possible. > > What revelance does this have to anything? Language is in reality not as precise in the use of words and expressions as you are so apt to bring into each discussion. You do not abandon your desire to drive safely because you assess the risk as safe enough to proceed. If there were blizzard conditions on the same trip you may assess the risk and not proceed. It is the same for OPCW staff going to CW storage sites and a Russian Soldiers driving trucks on dangerous roads. The risk is assessed and then the safely proceed. Perhaps escorted by helicopter gunships and only after a weeks long mine clearing operation was finished. Something bad could still happen but just as you assess the risk so does OPCW. They have some what transferred the risk to Assad’s government forces rather that take risks needlessly. The transport of CW is resumed. The Scoffers like Shodan are proven wrong. Did you see what he wrote last year? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/607 "2014-01-09T20:01:58Z")
What’s not to understand coming from someone prediction nothing will happen? Originally Posted by Shodan "This is coming down on Syria like a ton of bricks? It gives Assad some time to stall and negotiate while he kills the rebels, and in a few months when everyone has lost interest, he can hand over some chem weapons and say he is done. Or just declare that he can’t agree to anything. Nothing will happen - " ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/608 "2014-01-09T20:04:09Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Language is in reality not as precise in the use of words and expressions as you are so apt to bring into each discussion. In other words, you won’t be admitting mistakes or revising your remarks. I figured as much. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You do not abandon your desire to drive safely because you assess the risk as safe enough to proceed. > > If there were blizzard conditions on the same trip you may assess the risk and not proceed. > > It is the same for OPCW staff going to CW storage sites and a Russian Soldiers driving trucks on dangerous roads. The risk is assessed and then the safely proceed. Perhaps escorted by helicopter gunships and only after a weeks long mine clearing operation was finished. > > Something bad could still happen but just as you assess the risk so does OPCW. > > They have some what transferred the risk to Assad’s government forces rather that take risks needlessly. > > The transport of CW is resumed. The Scoffers like Shodan are proven wrong. This, along with your 18-wheeler-collision analogy, seem to be the _opposite_ of your initial claim, which was: > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Many scoffed at the idea that the CW could be safely removed from an active war zone. They have been shown to be wrong too. Instead, you are now arguing that safety can _never_ be assured, even for us civilians driving around the U.S. If that’s the case, then the “many” were _right_ to scoff, since you’re admitting that there is, indeed, much danger in moving the weapons through Syria and to the port. Or, you made a hasty, broad, over-generalization, and refuse to back down from it for some reason. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Did you see what he wrote last year? Yes, I did. What of it? He allowed that weapons might well get handed over, and that the deal is better than airstrikes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/609 "2014-01-09T21:33:55Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > My goal post stands where ‘two ends’ have already been accomplished. One is that it is not possible today for Assad to kill civilians unless he agregiously violates the UNSC Resolution that he signed. That is a major deterrent that protects human lives from death or severe injury from weapon that all but a few nations in the world refuse to manufacture stockpile and use. You should let Obama know this ASAP. [15 civilians killed in airstrike.](http://rt.com/news/aleppo-warplanes-strike-bombing-732/)Maybe he doesn’t get the news while on vacation. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Having a deterrent in place is an end. There is no credible deterrent in place. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/610 "2014-01-09T23:44:13Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In other words, you won’t be admitting mistakes or revising your remarks. I figured as much. > Instead, you are now arguing that safety can never be assured, even for us civilians driving around the U.S… I made no mistake. I used the word ‘safely’ exactly in the way you did. And that is not my argument at all. My argument is posted. No need for a rewrite. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/611 "2014-01-10T00:03:14Z")
This is one of my arguments. H.Action cited it but did not address it. Go back and read the text and anyone can see that. “My goal post stands where ‘two ends’ have already been accomplished. One is that it is not possible today for Assad to kill civilians unless he agregiously violates the UNSC Resolution that he signed.” The CW are not under Assad’s command and control and it is unlikely to change. That is what is called a milestone accomplishment reached by the OPCW. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/612 "2014-01-10T00:06:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You should let Obama know this ASAP. [15 civilians killed in airstrike.](http://rt.com/news/aleppo-warplanes-strike-bombing-732/)Maybe he doesn’t get the news while on vacation. > > There is no credible deterrent in place. Is Magiver not aware that we are discussing chemical weapons here and in my words he cited? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/613 "2014-01-10T00:24:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, I did. What of it? He allowed that weapons might well get handed over, and that the deal is better than airstrikes. No he didnt, he said Assad would or Assad wouldn’t but then Shodan broke his own argument with himself and said nothing would happen. Shodan wrote, _“It gives Assad some time to stall and negotiate while he kills the rebels, and in a few months when everyone has lost interest, he can hand over some chem weapons and say he is done. Or just declare that he can’t agree to anything. Nothing will happen.”_ That’s pretty sloppy. He ‘might’ hand ‘some’ over which is already proven not true. He has handed all his CW over to OPCW. Or with much more assertiveness that Assad will declare that he can’t agree to anything. And then Shodan summarizes by concluding that nothing can’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/614 "2014-01-10T00:39:28Z")
Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW _You wrote, “the Administration should have focused on the war, and not one category of weapons that’s responsible for a miniscule portion of the casualities thereof”._ Since you relate the Civil War getting (insufficient focus) to the separate issue of CW use getting (too much focus) it verified what I’ve said. H.Action replied, “I’ve lost whatever point you were trying to make here.” You might want to go back and see what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/615 "2014-01-10T00:47:43Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The ‘win’ for America and the Obama Admin is that Putin has ceded to Obama his military objective without having to launch a single ‘million dollar’ cruise missile. Putin has given Obama a valid course of action that is immeasurably better than the objective the military action itself could have produced. Putin hasn’t ceded anything militarily. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The win on diminishing the threat of 1000 tons of CW in the midst of a civil war without need for use of military action is on the record. The threat of military action if the diplomatic plan falls apart is still on the table. exposing tons of CW to a convoy that can be attacked driving through a war zone isn’t a particularly bright thing to do. The threat of military force was never on the table. Obama has no support for this. He is completely incapable of engaging in any action that would threaten Assad. The only thing Obama has succeeded in doing is wasting money at a time when it could be better spent on his own vacations. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/616 "2014-01-10T00:53:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Instead, you are now arguing that safety can _never_ be assured, even for us civilians driving around the U.S. If that’s the case, then the “many” were _right_ to scoff, since you’re admitting that there is, indeed, much danger in moving the weapons through Syria and to the port. I never argued or depended on an argument that there is not much danger moving the weapons through Syria and to the port. I’ve argued clearly that two major milestone have been completed safely in a war zone. And I am arguing that the Syrians, Russians and OPCW inspectors will take all precautions to finish their mission to remove the CW safely. They will not quit, they will destroy the weapons in place if that is required for safety. Shodan argued that nothing will happen. You argued that nothing significant has happened. You are both wrong but just by different degrees. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/617 "2014-01-10T01:40:17Z")
Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW: _The ‘win’ for America and the Obama Admin is that Putin has ceded to Obama his military objective without having to launch a single ‘million dollar’ cruise missile. Putin has given Obama a valid course of action that is immeasurably better than the objective the military action itself could have produced._ Magiver comes back with, _“Putin hasn’t ceded anything militarily.”_ He yielded to Obama’s military threat of strikes when he decided to get Assad to give up his control and destroy his Chemical Weapond aresenal and destroy all CW production facilities. That is just a fact. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/618 "2014-01-10T02:19:07Z")
For those that scoffed at the idea that the CW could be safely removed from an active war zone. They have been shown to be wrong, ( **Syria begins removal of chemical arms material** The vessel has been accompanied by naval escorts provided by Denmark and Norway - Reuters January 7, 2014 Beirut: Syria has moved the first batch of chemical weapon materials out of the country after transporting it from two sites to the port city of Latakia and onto a Danish vessel, the international chemical weapons watchdog said on Tuesday.) > **[Syria begins removal of chemical arms material](https://gulfnews.com/world/mena/syria-begins-removal-of-chemical-arms-material-1.1274976)** > > The vessel has been accompanied by naval escorts provided by Denmark and Norway ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/619 "2014-01-10T02:19:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW: _The ‘win’ for America and the Obama Admin is that Putin has ceded to Obama his military objective without having to launch a single ‘million dollar’ cruise missile. Putin has given Obama a valid course of action that is immeasurably better than the objective the military action itself could have produced._ > > Magiver comes back with, _“Putin hasn’t ceded anything militarily.”_ > He yielded to Obama’s military threat of strikes when he decided to get Assad to give up his control and destroy his Chemical Weapond aresenal and destroy all CW production facilities. That is just a fact. No, he didn’t. You keep making this very bizarre statement. Putin is Russia’s leader. He ceded nothing and there was never any threat to his country or Syria. [His response](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/173578) was to send in warships into the area to protect Russian interests. Assad is still busy slaughtering people and unless Syrians are mentally challenged he still has the capacity to make more chemical weapons. It’s not like there’s only one CW and it’s hard to make. There is no win for America in any of this. We have no vested interest in Syria. The Israelis took care of that years ago with Operation Orchid. Beyond that Obama is absolutely incapable of engaging Syrian forces. It’s not like it’s a secret given he publicly tried to hand it off to Congress and they handed it right back to him without approval. He simply has no support for this. Putin used this to his advantage and struck a deal that virtually eliminates any real UN intervention. Assad has free reign to wage his civil war. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/620 "2014-01-10T02:57:21Z")
Magiver wrote, \* “exposing tons of CW to a convoy that can be attacked driving through a war zone isn’t a particularly bright thing to do.” \* The experts working for the OPCW decided they could safely transport tons of CW quickly through a war zone rather than take more time and destroy them in place. Thank you Magiver for informing us that all the professionals and experts at OPCW are not particukarly bright for making that decision. What is the bright thing to do with that arsenal since you seem to know all about? Should they leave them there to be exposed for the full duration of the war. That would force international OPCW to be exposed to the dangers of being in a war zone for a much longer time. I don’t know how much skin Magiver’s got in that game of getting CW out of the Syrian civil war, but I tend to agree that OCPW and the UNSC and all the concerned nations across the globe from Norway to China ought to be the ones to decide how to go brightly about. Magiver had shown no reason to believe he knows anything about what is the ‘brightest’ way to accomplish the OPCW task at hand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=32)