# Russia/US UNSC Deal Reached - what it it means for masterful US President and Sec of State legacy. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852 "2013-09-14T17:20:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/901 "2014-04-12T08:03:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > On 04-12-2014 01:01 AM **CarnalK wrote:** > > What kind of argument is that? It wasn’t an argument at all. As to your OP, it will likely be the most minor of footnotes on either of their legacies. With a full on civil war producing massive deaths, casualties and refugees why should history give a shit that a smaller percentage were killed by chemical weapons? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/902 "2014-04-12T12:38:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It wasn’t an argument at all. > > As to your OP, it will likely be the most minor of footnotes on either of their legacies. With a full on civil war producing massive deaths, casualties and refugees why should history give a shit that a smaller percentage were killed by chemical weapons? The statistical significance of Syrian civilians killed in the civil war by chemical weapons versus conventional weapons should be how many (per artillery shell) and at what production cost ($) per strike to the Assad regime as well. To clarify my point lets say over the full three years of war only ten (100 pounds) of CW artillery delivery devices were fired with the intent kill and terrorize an entire populated area versus 10,000 (1,000,000? pounds) of conventional explosives delivered by missile-type weaponry. And then assume the hundred pounds of CW method kills per ten fired rounds 500 humans plus their dogs and cats and livestock. And the 100,000 rounds of conventional kills only ten humans per fired round. Now if you reversed them and did the math you could see the significance and the horrific difference if the Assad regime did not have to worry about international red line drawn over the use of CW. and he had many tons of the CW in his stockpile. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/903 "2014-04-12T12:47:14Z")
Correction to previous post: And the 10,000 rounds of conventional kills only ten humans per fired round ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/904 "2014-04-12T14:04:28Z")
A) you just made up a bunch of numbers B) chemical weapons are used only in certain circumstances so you can’t just do some straight conversion calculations. C) I still don’t think a theoretically lower death count in a conflict with a rather high actual death count is going affect many people’s legacies. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/905 "2014-04-12T18:58:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > A) you just made up a bunch of numbers > B) chemical weapons are used only in certain circumstances so you can’t just do some straight conversion calculations. > C) I still don’t think a theoretically lower death count in a conflict with a rather high actual death count is going affect many people’s legacies. What do you mean chemical weapons are used only in certain circumstances? They are not supposed to be used at all under any circumstances. That is why the civilized countries in the world ban them. If there were no public stand agsinst their use - Syria could kill more citizens cheaply and with no damaged infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/906 "2014-04-12T19:32:29Z")
I mean that they are useful only in specific military/tactical situations. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/907 "2014-04-12T19:33:05Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What do you mean chemical weapons are used only in certain circumstances? They are not supposed to be used at all under any circumstances. But that’s the point of this whole thread - they were used, and Obama couldn’t do anything about it. Putin could, and Putin’s deal involves continuing to have the Russians sell conventional weapons to the Syrians so they can kill lots of people. The deal makes no difference in the number of people Assad kills. Obama wanted a deal where fewer people would be killed, but he couldn’t bring it about. Putin wanted a deal where Russia can sell arms to Syria and more people will thereby be killed. That’s another of the reasons why it is so ridiculous to consider this a masterful deal. Assad will kill lots of people, just as he has always done. Obama couldn’t stop that, and Putin doesn’t want to stop that. So the deal that was struck involves Putin getting what he wants - selling arms to the Syrians and lots of Syrians dying - and Obama not getting what he wants - lots of Syrians are going to be killed (and Putin looks strong and capable and Obama looks weak and ineffectual). I would have thought any idiot could see that, but apparently not. As **CarnalK** mentions, you are simply making up figures, but even those fictions do not affect the main point - the deal Putin put together involves Assad killing just as many people as if no deal were in place. The only difference is that Assad has lots more Russian-supplied weapons to kill people with conventionally. So he’s going to, and has been, doing that. Hizbollah (who are fighting on behalf of Assad) [are continuing to plant](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hezbollah-develops-tactics-syrian-civil-war-23301377)conventional bombs and kill rebels. You think those people are any less dead because of this “deal”? So far, somewhere north of 100,000 people have been killed, and I don’t think it is much of a comfort to them to know that most of them were only blown up or shot. Regards, Shodan PS - I hope you aren’t going to claim that chemical weapons attacks have ceased in the Syrian war. Because, you know, they[haven’t](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/reports-new-gas-attack-syrian-village/). ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/908 "2014-04-12T22:04:29Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I mean that they are useful only in specific military/tactical situations. Are they useful as a terrorist tool? And more so than conventional artillery? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/909 "2014-04-12T22:46:20Z")
On 04-12-2014 at 02:58 PM\*\* I wrote:\*\* > [@](#): > > What do you mean chemical weapons are used only in certain circumstances? They are not supposed to be used at all under any circumstances. On 04-12-2014 at 03:33 PM \*\*Shodan wrote \*\* this response: > [@](#): > > But that’s the point of this whole thread - they were used, and Obama couldn’t do anything about it. This response is what undermines Shodan’s and other’s entire argument. It is not true that Obama couldn’t do anything about it. And Obama stated he preferred Congress’ approval but would take military action with or without Congress and there is no reason to believe Obama would not have done, had Putin not reversed his previous position and decided to cooperate in whatever way it took to rid Syria of the CW arsenal. The fallacy of Shodan’s argument is that Obama had just begun making the case for Congress while at the same time Putin surprised everyone and literally quickly agreed to the offer that Kerry put in public for a way for Assad to escape US military air strikes as punishment for using CW on his own people. Obama had been pressing Putin on doing that for several months. A US President can do just about whatever military action that he decides is necessary for sixty days before Congress can shut down the funding. The air strikes on Assad’s regime would have been over in a few days. There is no reason to believe Shodan’s argument has merit because Obama very well could have done the military option had it become necessary to do it. When Assad signed the CW treaty and agreed to the UNSC Resolution that is what is going on right now and that shows that Obama did something about the CW attack. The threat of CW is being removed from the civil war as we speak. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/910 "2014-04-12T23:33:49Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are they useful as a terrorist tool? And more so than conventional artillery? Sure, they might be Depending on the shelf life, how transportable and how easy to deploy they are. You want to make up a bunch of stuff about that too? ---
**Author:** ![Irwin\_Mainway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bb73d2/32.png) [@Irwin\_Mainway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irwin_Mainway)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/911 "2014-04-13T00:57:33Z")
He was using the chemicals for many months as a standard military tool. Dozens of times the Army would preceed an assault with highly diluted versions, mixed up so to just paralyze or cause breathing problems, rendering hero rebel fighters helpless. The news would appear - a dozen affected, stricken. One devilish agent works to kill only if the standard antidote atropine is administered, and some died that way. In fact Assad DID JUST THAT only yesterday!! in East Hama province. As reported over 100 are dead. However the other weapons were very nasty too - cluster bombs, barrel bombs, heat-seeking rockets, and the usual. [EMAIL=“[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=621654841253060&set=a.382885705129976.91927.363889943696219&type=1&relevant\_count=1](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=621654841253060&set=a.382885705129976.91927.363889943696219&type=1&relevant_count=1)”][https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=621654841253060&set=a.382885705129976.91927.363889943696219&type=1&relevant\_count=1](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=621654841253060&set=a.382885705129976.91927.363889943696219&type=1&relevant_count=1) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/912 "2014-04-13T01:40:50Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The deal helps the president with a masterful legacy. Being one of the few US presidents that have managed to steer the US out of expensive and bloody foreign wars to the extreme detriment of the American people. And this despite numerous opportunities and massive pressure to send in the boys to the slaughter. He even managed to pull out of two existing wars he was saddled with. > > All in all, one of the best US presidents in more than a generation. The only person suggesting a confrontation would be Obama with his moronic red line statement. He tried to pawn it off on Congress and they said got back a hearty “oh hell no”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/913 "2014-04-13T01:46:38Z")
> [@Irwin\_Mainway](#): > > In fact Assad DID JUST THAT only yesterday!! in East Hama province. As reported over 100 are dead. However the other weapons were very nasty too - cluster bombs, barrel bombs, heat-seeking rockets, and the usual. > > [EMAIL=“[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=621654841253060&set=a.382885705129976.91927.363889943696219&type=1&relevant\_count=1](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=621654841253060&set=a.382885705129976.91927.363889943696219&type=1&relevant_count=1)”][https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=621654841253060&set=a.382885705129976.91927.363889943696219&type=1&relevant\_count=1](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=621654841253060&set=a.382885705129976.91927.363889943696219&type=1&relevant_count=1) Well that can’t be so, [del]the dear leader[/del] Obama made an agreement and the inspectors have identified all the chemicals. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/914 "2014-04-13T11:35:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The only person suggesting a confrontation would be Obama with his moronic red line statement. He tried to pawn it off on Congress and they said got back a hearty “oh hell no”. Are you aware that at the time and in the context of a presidential campaign Obama’s Republican opponent was publically pushing the Syria Chemical Weapons issue against Obama’s weakness on that issue. He was also pushing the idea of sending in US ground troops as was shown in the following exchange on this thread last September: On 09-16-2013 at 12:12 PM \*\*RickJay wrote: \*\* > [@](#): > > This would have something to do with the issue if Mitt Romney’s opinions mattered, which they do not. And on 09-16-2013 at 12:38 PM here was my response: Why doesn’t Mitt Romney’s opinion matter?.. > [@](#): > > I have heard Romney’s name mentioned by his supporters according to the right wing narrative going around that ‘Putin spanked Obama’ means that Romney is vindicated for calling Russia our greatest geopolitical foe, > > I also believe Romney’s comments are a significant way to expose Republican hypocrisy for berating Obama’s handling of the CW situation in Syria. > > I can see why Republicans don’t want things Romney said brought up now. > > Like this one: > > > [@](#): > > > > Mitt Romney: Syria could see U.S. troops under my watch … > > [www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80128.html](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80128.html) > > COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney said Friday that he would send U.S. troops to Syria if needed to prevent the spread of chemical … ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/915 "2014-04-14T07:04:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are you aware that at the time and in the context of a presidential campaign Obama’s Republican opponent was publically pushing the Syria Chemical Weapons issue against Obama’s weakness on that issue. He was also pushing the idea of sending in US ground troops as was shown in the following exchange on this thread last September: did he draw a red line in the sand? No, that would be Obama. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/916 "2014-04-14T10:48:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > did he draw a red line in the sand? No, that would be Obama. Romney wouldnt bother waiting for a Red line to be crossed. He’s already committing ground troops to save the world from WMD. Where did we hear that before? > [@](#): > > “I think we have to also be ready to take whatever action is necessary to ensure that we do not have any kind of weapon of mass destruction falling into the hands of terrorists and whether that requires troops, or whether that requires other actions by our friends and allies,” Romney said in an interview with CBS News. > > Read more: [http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80128.html#ixzz2yr9QE8eh](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80128.html#ixzz2yr9QE8eh) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/917 "2014-04-14T12:11:15Z")
How come Obama’s masterful saber rattling wasn’t sufficient to stop Assad’s use of chlorine gas? I can’t wait to hear this answer. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/918 "2014-04-14T17:13:11Z")
I wouldn’t hold my breath. Our friend does not have a good record when it comes to acknowledging his errors. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/919 "2014-04-15T12:21:14Z")
I’m not reading this whole thread but in case it didn’t come to your attention, subsequent to his piece last year on faulty US intelliegence in relation to the Sarin attack, Sy Hersh wrote last week that it was likely a Back Flag attack: > [@](#): > > British intelligence had obtained a sample of the sarin used in the 21 August attack and analysis demonstrated that the gas used \*\*didn’t match \*\*the batches known to exist in the Syrian army’s chemical weapons arsenal. The message that the case against Syria wouldn’t hold up was quickly relayed to the US joint chiefs of staff. The British report heightened doubts inside the Pentagon; the joint chiefs were already preparing to warn Obama that his plans for a far-reaching bomb and missile attack on Syria’s infrastructure could lead to a wider war in the Middle East. > [@](#): > > ‘We knew there were some in the Turkish government,’ a former senior US intelligence official, who has access to current intelligence, told me, ‘who believed they could get Assad’s nuts in a vice by dabbling with a sarin attack inside Syria – and forcing Obama to make good on his red line threat.’ [London Review of Books](http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line) It follows up on this piece from last year: > [@](#): > > In the months before the attack, the American intelligence agencies produced a series of highly classified reports, culminating in a formal Operations Order – a planning document that precedes a ground invasion – citing evidence that the al-Nusra Front, a jihadi group affiliated with al-Qaida, had mastered the mechanics of creating sarin and was capable of manufacturing it in quantity. When the attack occurred al-Nusra should have been a suspect, but the administration cherry-picked intelligence to justify a strike against Assad. [Whose Sarin?](http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n24/seymour-m-hersh/whose-sarin) [For anyone who doesn’t know Sy Hersh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh) ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/920 "2014-04-15T12:24:19Z")
BrokenBriton, Sy Hersh’s article has been debunked [by](http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/4329/turkeys-syria-policy-why-seymour-hersh-got-it-wrong) [four](http://www.nucleardiner.com/archive/item/seymour-hersh-gets-it-all-wrong) [different](http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/seymour-hershs-volcano-problem.html) [authors](http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/7241/syria-forgeries-and-false-flags-2). They are convincing _debunkings_ in my opinion [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=47)