# Russia/US UNSC Deal Reached - what it it means for masterful US President and Sec of State legacy. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852 "2013-09-14T17:20:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/941 "2014-04-19T23:38:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Syria agreed to turn over all its chemical weapons by Feb. 6. “All”? Where did you hear that? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/942 "2014-04-19T23:55:26Z")
**NotfooledbyW** , do not post entire texts of copyrighted material in violation of copyright rules. ETA: I now see that you have been told to avoid doing this by a Moderator in the past. If you do this again, you will begin getting Warned. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/943 "2014-04-20T00:48:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > 80%. > > [Copyright violation removed.] > > [http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5179186/](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5179186/) 80% based on your belief in Assad. might as well quote 110% while you’re at it. But just out of curiosity, did the gas recently used come out of the 80% Assad promised to get rid of? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/944 "2014-04-20T00:49:39Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Out of curiosity, do you know how much chlorine gas has been handed over or destroyed by virtue of this masterful agreement? None. > [@](#): > > is not on a list of chemical weapons that Assad declared to the global chemical weapons watchdog last year for destruction. > > It is a so-called dual-use chemical, which would have to be declared to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), a spokesman said. [http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA3D0GM20140414?irpc=932](http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA3D0GM20140414?irpc=932) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/945 "2014-04-20T00:54:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **NotfooledbyW** , do not post entire texts of copyrighted material in violation of copyright rules. > > ETA: I now see that you have been told to avoid doing this by a Moderator in the past. If you do this again, you will begin getting Warned. > > [/Moderating] I intended to copy only the first paragraph which mentioned the 80% milestone. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/946 "2014-04-20T00:59:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 80% based on your belief in Assad. might as well quote 110% while you’re at it. > > But just out of curiosity, did the gas recently used come out of the 80% Assad promised to get rid of? I’ve seen no confirmation by the US or any other investigative source that Assad’s forces used chlorine in an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/947 "2014-04-20T01:05:38Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’ve seen no confirmation by the US or any other investigative source that Assad’s forces used chlorine in an attack. I didn’t use chlorine in a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/948 "2014-04-20T01:56:13Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > None. > [Syria opposition claims has evidence of chlorine gas attack | Reuters](http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA3D0GM20140414?irpc=932) So under Obama’s red line, Assad is free to use chlorine gas to attack civilians without risk of bombing; but he could not use Sarin without the risk of being bombed? Am I getting this right? Note I’m not alleging in this post that he did use chlorine - I’m saying that there’s basically a loophole: some types of poison gas are fine for him to have and potentially use; other types of poison gas are totally prohibited. This is your idea of “masterful?” ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/949 "2014-04-20T08:58:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So under Obama’s red line, Assad is free to use chlorine gas to attack civilians without risk of bombing; but he could not use Sarin without the risk of being bombed? Am I getting this right? No. You are getting it wrong. Starting with the wrong characterization that it was solely Obama’s red line. It was the international community’s red line to use the banned weapons such as Sarin or Mustard gas. At the time the nations that are signatory to the CWC were very concerned about the transfer or movement of these illicit chemicals and then falling into the hands of terrorists. > [@](#): > > As the conflict intensified, the international community became increasingly concerned that Syrian President Assad might use chemical weapons amid Syria’s deteriorating situation and rebel gains. On 20 August 2012, President Obama warned, “a red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized.” [53] Several days later UK Prime Minister David Cameron underscored President Obama’s remark that the threat or use of chemical weapons by President Assad’s regime would warrant a revised approach, alluding to military intervention. [54] The newly elected President of France, François Hollande, took the podium at the United Nations 67th General Assembly to let the Assad government know, “that the international community will not stand aside if they were to use chemical weapons.” [55] [http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/syria/chemical/](http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/syria/chemical/) Once you have acquired a sense of the broad urgency of the entire world’s concerns about CW being an underlying danger in a tragic civil War, then you can begin to understand the aspect of chlorine gas as a dual-use chemical being used to attack its citizens by a signatory government if the CWC. Syria reversed its position last fall and joined the CWC to avoid being hit with US airstrikes and with Russian pressure. It is not illegal to possess and nanufacture chlorine gas. It is a violation for any government party to use chlorine to kill civilians of course. But it would be a very serious violation if it is shown that Assad ordered an attack such as the one that has been recently alleged. The point right now is to find out which side perhaps turned a valve to release chlorine gas into the air to harm people and cause death. That may be diffucult to determine but facts need to be established further than what’s been reported to make a decision in the White House as to what should be done in response, ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/950 "2014-04-20T09:09:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I didn’t use chlorine in a sentence. You didnt have to mention it. That is what all reports are mentioning. If you think it was some other gas how have you arrived at that conclusion? And no matter what gas was recently used there are no reports that substantiate which side used it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/951 "2014-04-20T13:24:01Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No. You are getting it wrong. Starting with the wrong characterization that it was solely Obama’s red line. It was the international community’s red line to use the banned weapons such as Sarin or Mustard gas. I don’t see anything in your cite about the “international community’s red line” applying only to Sarin and mustard. Does that mean that the international community will not threaten air strikes if it is found that Assad used, and if there is evidence he will continue to use, chlorine? > [@](#): > > It is not illegal to possess and nanufacture chlorine gas. It is a violation for any government party to use chlorine to kill civilians of course. But it would be a very serious violation if it is shown that Assad ordered an attack such as the one that has been recently alleged. What I’m asking is, how serious? Do you think the US should bomb Syria if Assad did order the attacks? And again, how masterful is the diplomacy if before Assad was gassing civilians with one chemical, and a year later he’s gassing civilians with another chemical? I would say a masterful diplomatic solution would be one where Assad actually complies with the CWC - if that is indeed what happened. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/952 "2014-04-21T02:24:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t see anything in your cite about the “international community’s red line” applying only to Sarin and mustard. Does that mean that the international community will not threaten air strikes if it is found that Assad used, and if there is evidence he will continue to use, chlorine? > What I’m asking is, how serious? Do you think the US should bomb Syria if Assad did order the attacks? > > And again, how masterful is the diplomacy if before Assad was gassing civilians with one chemical, and a year later he’s gassing civilians with another chemical? I would say a masterful diplomatic solution would be one where Assad actually complies with the CWC - if that is indeed what happened. You still dont get the difference in dual-use chemicals that terrorists can obtain from many sources, versus banned gasses such as Sarin and Mustard. The masterfulness of removing over a thousand tons of the latter from a civil war zone, that includes involvement with international terrorists, should be obvious. A chlorine canister as the one shown recently used can be found in water treatment plants and other applications. It would be surprising to confirm that Assad ordered Chlorine gas used in the recent attack. All accounts are that he is winning the war against the rebels and his joining the CWC and giving up the chemicals has improved his chances at staying in power. So why risk Chlorine gas use at this point in the battle? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/953 "2014-04-25T03:14:04Z")
> [@](#): > > On Thursday, a joint task force made up of the OPCW and a UN team of experts, said Syria has removed and destroyed 92.5 percent of its chemical weapons. [http://presstv.com/detail/2014/04/25/359959/syrian-chemical-weapons-nearly-removed/](http://presstv.com/detail/2014/04/25/359959/syrian-chemical-weapons-nearly-removed/) Only 7.5% to go. Obama’s ‘threat of force’ is near to obtaining its diplomatic objective without firing a shot or cruise missile. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/954 "2014-04-25T05:38:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > [http://presstv.com/detail/2014/04/25/359959/syrian-chemical-weapons-nearly-removed/](http://presstv.com/detail/2014/04/25/359959/syrian-chemical-weapons-nearly-removed/) > Only 7.5% to go. Obama’s ‘threat of force’ is near to obtaining its diplomatic objective without firing a shot or cruise missile. that’s if you believe Assad. You remember him, the person slaughtering people at will because of the masterful agreement of non-intervention Putin got Obama to sign. Not only did Putin not have to fire a shot he’s selling Assad the weapons to continue killing as well as the equipment for Iran’s nuclear program. Which Obama released funds to pay for. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/955 "2014-04-25T14:51:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that’s if you believe Assad. No. I am not fooled by such arguments. Never was. US intelligence knew prior to the OPCW deal the approximate stockpile tonnages of CW with Russian cooperation on their whereabouts etc. 1300 tons are being destroyed and removed from the civil war. Scoffers here said it could not be done. They were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/956 "2014-04-25T18:37:31Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No. I am not fooled by such arguments. Never was. US intelligence knew prior to the OPCW deal the approximate stockpile tonnages of CW with Russian cooperation on their whereabouts etc. 1300 tons are being destroyed and removed from the civil war. Scoffers here said it could not be done. They were wrong. You’re just shifting your belief system from Assad to Putin. Assad still has, and is still using chemical weapons against civilians . That’s not scoffing that’s fact. Obama spent a chunk of money to convince one guy on the internet of his greatness. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/957 "2014-04-25T19:12:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Obama spent a chunk of money to convince one guy on the internet of his greatness. And he didn’t need to spend more than ten cents, tops. No wonder the deficit is out of control. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/958 "2014-04-26T11:12:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re just shifting your belief system from Assad to Putin. > > Assad still has, and is still using chemical weapons against civilians. OPCW is looking into that. Meanwhile the potential of nearly all of the 1300 tons of CW have been removed from a civil war zone and thus the potential for falling into terrorists or renegade Syrian Army hands … that could do much more killing with it. Have you confirmed that claim or are you doing the ‘Saddam is hiding WMD from UN inspectors in March 2003’ George Bush replay? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/959 "2014-04-26T11:15:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s not scoffing that’s fact. No fact whatsoever is in your argument. The scoffing was in regards to the possibility of removing existing chemical weapons materials out of a civil war zone. The scoffers are proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/960 "2014-04-26T23:54:01Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No fact whatsoever is in your argument. The scoffing was in regards to the possibility of removing existing chemical weapons materials out of a civil war zone. The scoffers are proven wrong. It’s a fact, it hasn’t stopped Assad from using chemical weapons or killing people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=49)