# Russia/US UNSC Deal Reached - what it it means for masterful US President and Sec of State legacy. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852 "2013-09-14T17:20:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/101 "2013-09-16T21:05:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Is Murmansk a “warm water” port? I thought the term was created specifically to discount Murmansk and St. Petersberg. Well, if the moving average Arctic ice melt trends continue… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/102 "2013-09-17T01:57:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > …Mitt Romney does not matter, and trotting him out in an effort to make Obama look okay in comparison is pathetic. Still, I get that shiver of fear remembered, thinking about what didn’t happen, and when it passes I feel a bit more cheerful. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/103 "2013-09-17T07:52:03Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I am not comparing Obama to Romney. I am taking what Romney said on the topic to expose right winger hypocrisy. Their standard bearer last election would put troops on the ground in -Syria to stop the spread and threat of CW. -Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW > > Maybe Barry Goldwater would have, too! -Rick Jay > > > [@](#): > > > > If what you say is true there should be no reference to Obama’s Red Line comment during the campaign but there is. -Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW > > Barack Obama is the President of the United States of America. His opinions matter. His track record matters. What he has said in the past, to varying degrees depending on relevance, matters. The consistency of his policies and positions matter. > > Mitt Romney does not matter, and trotting him out in an effort to make Obama look okay in comparison is pathetic. I do not dispute that Obama’s statements and actions matter. And I see you are refusing to respond to my explanation as to why Romney’s statements matter. Perhaps I can get a response or rebuttal this time. I am taking what Romney said on the topic to expose right winger hypocrisy. Their standard bearer last election would put troops on the ground in -Syria to stop the spread and threat of CW. Exposing right winger hypocrisy is very critical to the discussion we are having today. There is so much of it going around and it effects critical decision that need to be made such as a dictator gassing his own people near our allies and bases in the region and what to do about it. Republicans a decade ago strongly supported a ground invasion instead of letting inspectors finish the job in order to rid the world of CW because in the aftermath of 9/11/01 it was not acceptable to let the CW fall into the hands of terrorists. We have a similar situation except there is no question that these CW exist and that the dictator that controls them has just used them to kill scores of men women and children right in front of our face. Mitt Romney has a record that matters and he supported the invasion of Iraq and he represents the ideology of the Republican Party and still does today. In less than a year are we expected to believe that Romney’s run for President as the Republican nominee was a fraud. Republicans don’t believe the things he ran on. Come on. We know what’s going on here. There is hypocrisy in Republican actions today as they follow the Mitch McConnell doctrine… (that failed) and that was to devote the GOP to making sure Obama was a one term president. And they just can’t let it go now. It has become an addiction. So now we are to erase Mitt Romney from the historical record. That would be ok with me, except the right wing punditry have revived his futile campaign with the suggestion that his foreign policy positions are being vindicated by what Obama said about the red line. Of course that makes no sense either but they are putting that out there… so no… Romney doesn’t go away in my book when they pull a stunt like that. Vindication? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/104 "2013-09-17T07:57:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Still, I get that shiver of fear remembered, thinking about what didn’t happen, and when it passes I feel a bit more cheerful. Nate Silver kept me calm throughout the entire “Romney Could Become President” nightmare. And specifically the final two weeks. It would have been awful with out him. But I must admit that seeing the pale grays and whites of the RNC Convention and the many hews of color of the DNC Convention, put me quite a bit at ease too. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/105 "2013-09-17T08:18:26Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Bombs and Bullets are better than CWs in about 90% of instances, Really? When the objective is to kill massive numbers of people and wipe them out in order to eliminate opposition military forces by targeting and eliminating the wives and children of the fighters in the villages and beds where they sleep, deadly gas has to be the most effective. Also it does not destroy property as bombs do. There’s a reason why they are banned. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/106 "2013-09-18T02:55:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am taking what Romney said on the topic to expose right winger hypocrisy. Their standard bearer last election would put troops on the ground in -Syria to stop the spread and threat of CW. If you are determined to continue pretending that today is September 17, 2012, there isn’t much anyone can do to stop you. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/107 "2013-09-18T05:17:25Z")
Dear Mods: Please change the Op’s user name to FooledbyO. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/108 "2013-09-18T06:32:30Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Really? When the objective is to kill massive numbers of people and wipe them out in order to eliminate opposition military forces by targeting and eliminating the wives and children of the fighters in the villages and beds where they sleep, deadly gas has to be the most effective. Also it does not destroy property as bombs do. > > There’s a reason why they are banned. This, as many of your other posts, makes no sense. You don’t “eliminate” opposing forces by killing their families – if anything you only encourage them to fight to the end. As far as not destroying property, yeah, so? As long as the opposition fighters are not there, again, they’ll come back with a vengeance. Fact is, CWs have been overrated as far back as WWI. They’ve only been accepted as 'WMDs" due to some very faulty ‘morals.’ If I want to kill wholesale, give me Napalm, Agent Orange, White Phosphorus, MOABs or simply let me go nuclear. Anyhow, where do you vomit this from? It’s absurd. CWs are really really, last Century as an effective killing weapon. Heck, you have to literally watch where the wind blows when you use 'em. How _ancient_ is that? I get it, you are part of the Obama-can-do-no-wrong crowd – but reality has to stand in the way even for Barry. Especially in a site purporting to fight ignorance. Fight yours and come back to us. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/109 "2013-09-18T07:20:10Z")
Sarin is a chemical weapon in much the same way that a light saber is a knife. It ain’t Granpa Simpson’s mustard gas. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/110 "2013-09-18T08:46:59Z")
> [@The\_Understander](#): > > Note that going to Congress for approval, while all but dictated by the overwhelming opposition to military action in Syria, allowed the space for the Russian offer to materialize. There are benefits to following the spirit of the law in the Constitution, it seems… who’da thunk it? Imagine had this been the case with Iraq… You do realize that Bush actually went to, and received Congress’ approval for Iraq, right? Hell, John Kerry even voted for it (before he was against it): [Cite](http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237) > [@The\_Understander](#): > > … i.e; that it is perfectly cromulent for the US/UN/NATO whomever to come down like a ton of bricks on any country using WMD. That would be an “incredibly small” ton of bricks, right? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/111 "2013-09-18T14:25:52Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m confused as to why the OP of this thread has basically derailed it with a bunch of rhetoric from 2002-2003. If you look at the op’s name as a mission statement it makes sense. W is a false god to be trotted out as needed. The main objective of the op is to prove that a political endeavor with no internal public/political support and no international support is a stroke of genius. This was accomplished by forcing Putin to do his bidding to rid Syria of chemical weapons by 2014. All this was done with the threat of an unbelievably small use of force. I think Putin is also working on a cure for cancer so it should be a good year. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/112 "2013-09-18T14:52:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you look at the op’s name as a mission statement it makes sense. W is a false god to be trotted out as needed. Did you support W’s decision to kick inspectors out and invade Iraq. I didn’t. And in the current situation I support Obama using the threat of force to get Syria disarmed through a similar inspection process. No one had explained why Putin did not come around with this until after the US Senate passed a bill in committee that would authorize the use of force if passed in the full Senate. Putin did wait to see if it could pass and blinked right away. Putin was not interested in this remedy going back to June 2012 when Romney said he would put American boots on the ground in Syria. What made Putin blink if it was not the threat of force? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/113 "2013-09-18T14:57:15Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Dear Mods: > > Please change the Op’s user name to FooledbyO. You would have to define and elaborate what Obama has done to fool me or others. Are you up to the task. You can go to the Arrrrrg thread. It’s already up And running. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/114 "2013-09-18T15:02:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > This, as many of your other posts, makes no sense. > > You don’t “eliminate” opposing forces by killing their families – if anything you only encourage them to fight to the end. As far as not destroying property, yeah, so? As long as the opposition fighters are not there, again, they’ll come back with a vengeance. Fact is, CWs have been overrated as far back as WWI. They’ve only been accepted as 'WMDs" due to some very faulty ‘morals.’ If I want to kill wholesale, give me Napalm, Agent Orange, White Phosphorus, MOABs or simply let me go nuclear. > > Anyhow, where do you vomit this from? It’s absurd. CWs are really really, last Century as an effective killing weapon. Heck, you have to literally watch where the wind blows when you use 'em. How _ancient_ is that? > > I get it, you are part of the Obama-can-do-no-wrong crowd – but reality has to stand in the way even for Barry. Especially in a site purporting to fight ignorance. Fight yours and come back to us. Does anyone agree with Red Fury on this. I’d like to see who does. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/115 "2013-09-18T15:08:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If you are determined to continue pretending that today is September 17, 2012, there isn’t much anyone can do to stop you. I am not pretending any such thing. When did history and the record of political party’s positions on important issues get banned on this discussion forum? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/116 "2013-09-18T15:46:29Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Did you support W’s decision to kick inspectors out and invade Iraq. I didn’t. And in the current situation I support Obama using the threat of force to get Syria disarmed through a similar inspection process. post 78. W had the support of the American people, Congress, and the UN. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What made Putin blink if it was not the threat of force? Putin was never threatened with force. And you cannot really be so naive as to believe Putin is going to make CW’s go away in Syria. If there was ever any blinking done by him it was with one eye. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/117 "2013-09-18T15:48:39Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am not pretending any such thing. > > When did history and the record of political party’s positions on important issues get banned on this discussion forum? because we’re discussing Obama’s position which isn’t backed up with any internal or international support. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/118 "2013-09-18T16:29:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **RedFury** > I get it, you are part of the Obama-can-do-no-wrong crowd… > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Does anyone agree with Red Fury on this. I’d like to see who does. I agree with this. My cite is the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/119 "2013-09-18T16:46:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > because we’re discussing Obama’s position which isn’t backed up with any internal or international support. What you are saying is false at the outset. So that can’t be much to discuss unless this a review of short fiction stories. Unless you can elaborate how the 60% to 40% public opposition to the proposed military strike means it is impossible for Obama to launch those strikes if he decides they are necessary. And that includes any time in the future. No one has responded to that point so all excessive focus on ‘popular support’ has little to do with the discussion. Sometimes presidents must do unpopular things. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/120 "2013-09-18T16:53:29Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > I agree with this. My cite is the thread title. Do you agree with the substance of Red’s CW argument? Or are you only interested in the 'personal swipes at the writer kind of stuff? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=7)