# Russia/US UNSC Deal Reached - what it it means for masterful US President and Sec of State legacy. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852 "2013-09-14T17:20:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/161 "2013-09-20T07:33:41Z")
Short of Obama committing _seppuku_ in the Rose Garden, what exact outcome would meet with your approval? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/162 "2013-09-20T09:59:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I share your relief that Putin’s diplomatic efforts seem to be winning out over Obama’s miltitaristic ones, but it’s still still very early in the process. Let’s keep in mind that Putin is still denying that Assad used CWs, so the senior partner in this effort isn’t exactly on the same page with the US and other Western Powers. They are not (Putin’s Diplomatic Efforts). They are (Diplomatic Efforts) proposed and desired by all sides now. David Ignatius has it right: “Russia has been drawn into a process of collecting and destroying Syria’s chemical arsenal. This has been a goal of U.S. policy for two years. It finally worked, thanks in part to Obama’s pledge to use military force to punish Syria if the Russians didn’t step up.” Ignatius is right because Putin had to accept the diplomatic out that Obama had been pressing prior to the conclusive evidence that Putin’s partner nation had used chemical weapons to kill women and children. And Putin does not have a legitimate military option other than to fire on a NATO nation’s ships and or bomber’s. Putin is highly outgunned if he were to choose a military option to prevent a US airstrikes on Syria. Obama has the military option regardless of public sentiment but I have no doubt Obama’s first choice was a diplomatic solution. Putin was approached regarding this very same diplomatic option 18 months ago which was before any women and babies were gassed. Putin did not take it. Why? It is unrealistic to suggest that Obama ‘wanted’ the military option but was forced into it by a wily and cunning Putin. That makes no sense other than its s stretch of the imagination that satisfied the right’ need to bash Obama no matter what he does. And it is very unrealistic to wish that a pacifistic diplomacy-only option press by Obama since the gas attack would have brought Putin into the diplomatic process. Do you think if Putin offered the same diplomacy prior to last year’s election in the US that Obama would have refused to consider it because he wanted more to cowboy some cruise missiles into Syria for some kind of strength? Come on. This is not Putin’s diplomacy. It is diplomacy played at its best by our president not the Russian one. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/163 "2013-09-20T13:23:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And NotfooledbyW has extolled the virtues of our dear leader’s diplomacy. So it’s GOING to happen. And we’ll be able to prove it because… well it’s just GOING to happen. Rest assured. Nope you are wrong again. I am extolling the virtue of what has already happened. David Ignatius describes what happened. "“Russia has been drawn into a process of collecting and destroying Syria’s chemical arsenal. This has been a goal of U.S. policy for two years. It finally worked, thanks in part to Obama’s pledge to use military force to punish Syria if the Russians didn’t step up.” Yes. Putin was drawn into a process after the threat of force was announced and if the process ceases to function the threat of force is still ready to go. Obama did not surrender America’s cruise missile stockpile in the agreement that was reached. We still have them as far as I know. The diplomacy has already worked. And I believe the dismantling and destruction process will proceed and go well because Obama can be believed when he commits to a preference for diplomacy over war. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/164 "2013-09-20T13:31:50Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The LA Times is [reporting](http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-syria-deadline-20130919,0,3368673.story) that Syria may miss the first deadline in the deal, for providing an inventory. Let’s hope the deal as a whole stays on track. It looks very promising to stay on track. See my post about Assad’s interview on Fox News. We can have this list today, and we may well have something.But indications are it is the UN inspectors meeting today on how to proceed more in the technical and logistical sense now that they have suddenly been invited in. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/165 "2013-09-20T14:18:27Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It looks very promising to stay on track. See my post about Assad’s interview on Fox News. > > We can have this list today, and we may well have something.But indications are it is the UN inspectors meeting today on how to proceed more in the technical and logistical sense now that they have suddenly been invited in. 5 days to go. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/166 "2013-09-20T14:18:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-syria-deadline-20130919,0,3368673.story](http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-syria-deadline-20130919,0,3368673.story) > > Last Saturday, Kerry: > > “We agreed that Syria must submit within a week — not in 30 days, but in one week — a comprehensive listing,” Kerry said Saturday. He said the U.S. would allow “no games, no room for avoidance, or anything less than full compliance.” > Today:The State Department signaled that it would not insist that Syrian President Bashar Assad produce the list Saturday, the end of a seven-day period spelled out in the framework deal that Washington and Moscow announced last weekend in Geneva. > > Marie Harf, a State Department spokeswoman, said Wednesday that “our goal is to see forward momentum” by Saturday, not the full list. “We’ve never said it was a hard and fast deadline.” My my! Another Kerry bungle. They turned the list over too soon. It’s not a week yet. > [@](#): > > Syria Sent ‘Initial Declaration’ On Its Chemical Weapons Program To Convention Organizers > > Associated Press – September 20, 2013, 9:44 AM EDT ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/167 "2013-09-20T14:31:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 5 days to go. For what? You didn’t hear the latest? I think Kerry punked all the critics yesterday. He probably had Syria’s list on his desk and he told the reporters the damn thing was delayed. > [@](#): > > Quote: > Syria Sent ‘Initial Declaration’ On Its Chemical Weapons Program To Convention Organizers > > Associated Press – September 20, 2013, 9:44 AM EDT What now? Is it like Colin Powell said “Iraq’s list is no good.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/168 "2013-09-20T14:34:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > My analogy for Obama’s performance would be that over four quarters he fumbled the football multiple times and things looked bleak… > > I think the current outcome is **good** and is definitely better than we would have gotten if we had pursued the limited military strikes against Assad. However, I see no evidence it was part of any master plan by Kerry and Obama… > > So my verdict is: good job President Obama :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/169 "2013-09-20T14:35:39Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > My my! Another Kerry bungle. They turned the list over too soon. It’s not a week yet. Man, you’re so eager to find something, anything, that this administration can claim as an achievement, that you’re really clutching at straws. You do understand that that “initial declaration” has nothing to do with the “comprehensive listing” that Kerry demanded, right? And no, it is not the list that Kerry is expecting. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/170 "2013-09-20T14:36:12Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am gloating over the great news last week that diplomacy is winning out over military action with regard to Syria. If you think that is partisan I cannot dissagree with you more. What is partisan is giving Obama credit for this outcome. Partisan and laughable. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/171 "2013-09-20T14:52:51Z")
As the old joke goes, if Obama walks on water, you will loudly declare he can’t swim. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/172 "2013-09-20T15:03:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What is partisan is giving Obama credit for this outcome. Partisan and laughable. Why? It was Obama out in a limb against his supporters and public opinion but his demand was met by Putin and Assad. Who else do you give credit to? Rand Paul? Congress anti-war isolationist opposition to air strikes is what put the fear of god into Putin and Assad? Just a coincidence they came around after Obama threatened force to be used. Do you have any kind of argument other than you a capable of laughing? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/173 "2013-09-20T15:04:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As the old joke goes, if Obama walks on water, you will loudly declare he can’t swim. Well he IS black. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/174 "2013-09-20T15:05:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Man, you’re so eager to find something, anything, that this administration can claim as an achievement, that you’re really clutching at straws. > > You do understand that that “initial declaration” has nothing to do with the “comprehensive listing” that Kerry demanded, right? And no, it is not the list that Kerry is expecting. How do you know that? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/175 "2013-09-20T15:17:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What is partisan is giving Obama credit for this outcome. Partisan and laughable. Eh, I wouldn’t say that, magellan. The basic rule for Presidents has always been: “If it happened while you were President it’s your credit/debit.” Using that basis (on which thing entirely outside or within the President’s control are fixed to him) then certainly he gets the credit. That’s the case whether or not you agree with what happened. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/176 "2013-09-20T15:28:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Man, you’re so eager to find something, anything, that this administration can claim as an achievement, that you’re really clutching at straws. > > You do understand that that “initial declaration” has nothing to do with the “comprehensive listing” that Kerry demanded, right? And no, it is not the list that Kerry is expecting. Do you know whether or not Syria kept a comprehensive list as they produced and stockpiled these weapons? if so they certainly could send that list as their initial declaration in order to save trees. Why make two lists of the same thing? Surely they have Kinkos over there - just print off a couple copies. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/177 "2013-09-20T15:58:50Z")
Russian laser printers and Bulgarian software. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/178 "2013-09-20T17:39:48Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Eh, I wouldn’t say that, magellan. The basic rule for Presidents has always been: > > “If it happened while you were President it’s your credit/debit.” > > Using that basis (on which thing entirely outside or within the President’s control are fixed to him) then certainly he gets the credit. That’s the case whether or not you agree with what happened. OK, so far Obama gets credit for not attacking Syria. But he also gets credit for [waiving the ban on arming terrorists](http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-waives-ban-on-arming-terrorists-to-allow-aid-to-syrian-opposition/article/2535885). Which makes on sense. He does this without proof that Assad was responsible for the use of CW’s. He is literally breaking the law to act as judge, jury, and executioner. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/179 "2013-09-20T18:47:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK, so far Obama gets credit for not attacking Syria. But he also gets credit for [waiving the ban on arming terrorists](http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-waives-ban-on-arming-terrorists-to-allow-aid-to-syrian-opposition/article/2535885). Which makes on sense. He does this without proof that Assad was responsible for the use of CW’s. > > He is literally breaking the law to act as judge, jury, and executioner. Obama gets credit for getting Syria and Russia to agree to dismantle an arsenal of chemical weapons in the midst of a civil war where terrorist groups are involved in the fighting. And you are right, Obama accomplished that without needing to use military force. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852/180 "2013-09-20T18:49:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK, so far Obama gets credit for not attacking Syria. But he also gets credit for [waiving the ban on arming terrorists](http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-waives-ban-on-arming-terrorists-to-allow-aid-to-syrian-opposition/article/2535885). Which makes on sense. He does this without proof that Assad was responsible for the use of CW’s. > > He is literally breaking the law to act as judge, jury, and executioner. He is doing what all Presidents do: Whatever he can get away with. That’s another longstanding tradition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-us-unsc-deal-reached-what-it-it-means-for-masterful-us-president-and-sec-of-state-legacy/668852.md?page=10)