# Russia, with Hamas and Syria today and Turkey tomorrow.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 11, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076 "2010-05-11T18:20:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/1 "2010-05-11T18:20:51Z")
Well done Mod.
[http://world.globaltimes.cn/europe/2010-04/521770.html](http://world.globaltimes.cn/europe/2010-04/521770.html)
So will the Israeli pirates try anything with the Turkish ships in the Med?
So far they have shot and damaged civilian aid ships carrying aid workers, so who is to say they won’t this time.
More news for the newsless:D
Russia’s Medvedev with Syria’s Bashir and Hamas’s Meshaal, today in Damascus supporting Iran’s right to nuclear technology, amongst other things discussed. If you want to know then find the text or watch a playback I’m not going to put it all here for you.
Medvedev flying onto Istanbul tomorrow for chat with Erdogan.
So Straight Dopers.
What is that all about?
Coming days before the flotilla to Gaza.
Connection or not?
Can’t help thinking it IS connected as Hamas was chatting to Medvedev too.
Chat amongst yourselves.
I don’t think I can stomach another pile of posts from Banal telling everyone not to speak to the Marmite Lover, and trying to detract attention again so I will watch from the sidelines for now.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/2 "2010-05-11T18:37:21Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#):
>
> Chat amongst yourselves.
> I don’t think I can stomach another pile of posts from Banal telling everyone not to speak to the Marmite Lover, and trying to detract attention again so I will watch from the sidelines for now.
This forum presumes that posters will participate. If you are going to sit this out, I am going to shut it down.
[/Modding]
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### Author:  [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/3 "2010-05-11T18:39:55Z")
Incredibly I Googled it and not a single US or UK news agency has come up!😕
Isn’t that scary that you don’t know whats happening around the world and have to go to Chinese sources to see what’s happening about the Turkish ships:eek:
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### Author:  [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/4 "2010-05-11T18:44:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> This forum presumes that posters will participate. If you are going to sit this out, I am going to shut it down.
> [/Modding]
Okay then please when Banal comes on telling everyone not to participate and to ignore my posts tell him to stop opening them, reading them and to find something that does interest him. It is quite distracting when posters are not interested in debating the point and attack personally.
I also cannot sit here all night as it is almost 10pm and I expected to participate tomorrow when other posters have time to post. I can’t sit up all night just because I made a post surely? You have to allow for time differences.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/5 "2010-05-11T18:55:36Z")
Oh good grief. You’ve already spoken approvingly of a war to eliminate Israel which would lead to a regional nuclear war, now you’re jumping from Turkey’s attempt to circumvent the 4th Geneva Convention to Iran’s nuclear program (which you refuse to cite:rolleyes: ). Your argument is incoherent and disjointed, at best.
Of course, the argument isn’t over whether Iran should have nuclear technology, but whether they should be creating weaponizable HEU and blocking IAEA investigations. And the 4th Geneva Convention is not only not an “illegal” document, it specifies exactly what an occupying power can do in regards to consignments.
[
> [@](#):
>
> Art. 23. Each High Contracting Party shall allow the free passage of all consignments of medical and hospital stores and objects necessary for religious worship intended only for civilians of another High Contracting Party, even if the latter is its adversary. It shall likewise permit the free passage of all consignments of essential foodstuffs, clothing and tonics intended for children under fifteen, expectant mothers and maternity cases.
>
> The obligation of a High Contracting Party to allow the free passage of the consignments indicated in the preceding paragraph is subject to the condition that this Party is satisfied that there are no serious reasons
> for fearing:
>
> (a) that the consignments may be diverted from their destination,
> (b) that the control may not be effective, or
> (c) that a definite advantage may accrue to the military efforts or economy of the enemy through the substitution of the above-mentioned consignments for goods which would otherwise be provided or produced by the enemy or through the release of such material, services or facilities as would otherwise be required for the production of such goods.
>
> The Power which allows the passage of the consignments indicated in the first paragraph of this Article may make such permission conditional on the distribution to the persons benefited thereby being made under the local supervision of the Protecting Powers.
]([http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5))
As for Russia talking with Hamas, what exactly is your point? Hamas is a genocidal, racist, rejectionist organization that imposes theocracy via naked force. Are we supposed to champion a possible Russian alliance with Hamas because it’s anti-Israel? And your complaint about western news services? A Turkish NGO initiates yet another political protest and you’re expecting what, exactly? If and when anything actually happens we’ll see the result, the idea that Americans should be marking our calendars in the hopes of this sparking a regional war, as you have done, is a misread of America’s culture.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/6 "2010-05-11T18:58:47Z")
**Marmite Lover** , stop it with the “Banal” thing. It’s childish and you’ll get a warning for personal insults if you do it again.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/7 "2010-05-11T19:27:49Z")
Although there’s been a few bumps in the relationship lately, Israel and Turkey have enjoyed a half century of good relations.
I have no idea what the hell the OP’s point is.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/8 "2010-05-11T19:38:46Z")
The OP has made a few, shall we say not exactly unsupportive, posts about how there might be a regional war to destroy Israel and that Israel interdicting the passage of Turkish ships to Gaza might be the ‘spark’ that sets off that conflagration. As such, it seems that the OP’s point may be “We may be headed to a regional nuclear war. Let’s hope!”
It’s also interesting… Edrogan has been doing his part to damage Israeli-Turkish relations recently like denying that there could be any genocidal actions going on in Darfur because Muslims can never be engaged in genocide, but Israel’s actions wrt Gaza are worse than anything that’s going on in Darfur. Chances are that Israel and Turkey’s relationship will be rocky for a bit, but it’ll bounce back sooner or later.
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### Author:  [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/9 "2010-05-11T20:55:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Russia, with Hamas and Syria today and Turkey tomorrow.
I’ll just have the soup.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/10 "2010-05-11T21:12:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> **Marmite Lover** , stop it with the “Banal” thing. It’s childish and you’ll get a warning for personal insults if you do it again.
For informational purposes only: Who was he referencing/insulting? I’m drawing a blank.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/11 "2010-05-11T21:19:12Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> For informational purposes only: Who was he referencing/insulting? I’m drawing a blank.
**Babale**. They’ve argued in other threads.
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### Author:  [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/12 "2010-05-12T15:09:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> It’s also interesting… Edrogan has been doing his part to damage Israeli-Turkish relations recently
Is the other part Israel’s incistence on insulting the Turkish government over things it has no control over like the plots of TV shows?
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> like denying that there could be any genocidal actions going on in Darfur because Muslims can never be engaged in genocide, but Israel’s actions wrt Gaza are worse than anything that’s going on in Darfur. Chances are that Israel and Turkey’s relationship will be rocky for a bit, but it’ll bounce back sooner or later.
I think Erdogan’s poor choice of words to describe his apathy over arguing Darfur vs. Gaza reflects the decision made by the Turkish government that there is very little upside to pursuing close relations with Israel. I disagree with you that it will bounce back. Israel and Turkey’s relationship will stabilize at this level until a permanent peace is made over Palestine. The only place it can go is down, precisely because the partnerships Turkey is pursuing benefit from some antagonism and older relationships are hardly affected.
To clarify I don’t think the Israeli-Turkish relationship could decline to the level of **Marmite Lover** ’s fantasies.
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### Author:  [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/13 "2010-05-12T16:19:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> Of course, the argument isn’t over whether Iran should have nuclear technology, but whether they should be creating weaponizable HEU and blocking IAEA investigations. And the 4th Geneva Convention is not only not an “illegal” document, it specifies exactly what an occupying power can do in regards to consignments.
First, let me state that I don’t think Iran should have nuclear weapons and support military action (including the use of nuclear weapons) to prevent Iran from acquiring them. Similarly, I don’t think it is in the U.S interest for Israel to possess them either and wish the U.S would put pressure on Israel to disarm - if force by necessary. None of these Middle Eastern countries should have nuclear weapons. \
It doesn’t seem equitable that countries that didn’t sign NPT have a carte blanche to develop nuclear weapons while countries that did sign the NPT can’t get a blueprint for a small nuclear reactor approved. The cognitive dissonance fries my brain. Iran has claimed they haven’t started a war in hundreds of years. If this is true, Iran has higher moral standing that a lot of countries (including my own); a history of a country has to be considered. I also don’t buy the fact that one comment (or a suite of them) from the Iranian President makes the entire country anti-Israel or anti-Jewish.
- Honesty
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/14 "2010-05-12T16:30:56Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#):
>
> Is the other part Israel’s incistence on insulting the Turkish government over things it has no control over like the plots of TV shows?
The show ran [on Turkish state-run television](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLF150215), it’s rather disingenuous to claim that a show on state-run television depicting a friendly nation’s armed forces as blood crazed baby killers and [furthering the Blood Libel with scenes of IDF soldiers kidnapping children for nefarious purposes](http://abcnews.go.com/International/israel-turkey-row-tv-show/story?id=9538308)has nothing to do with the government. It’s something else entirely to then blame that friendly nation for getting perturbed.
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### Author:  [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/15 "2010-05-12T16:52:31Z")
Good on Turkey and the rest of the brave nationals trying to administer “illegal” humanitarian aid to he long-suffering, second-class citizens of the Open Air Prison Camp, aka Gaza.
Of course, the brave Israeli Navy has already warned they’ll be [**greeted with gunfire**](http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=175223) if need be.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/16 "2010-05-12T16:56:49Z")
You’re welcome to address the facts about an occupying power’s control over consignments, any time Red. I already cited them, here’s a link to [that post from the distant past](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12441512&postcount=5). You might also want to ponder why people who aren’t Israeli citizens are somehow “second class citizens” and why measures specifically and explicitly authorized by the 4th Geneva Convention are really “prison camps”.
Or not.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/17 "2010-05-12T17:16:54Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#):
>
> Incredibly I Googled it and not a single US or UK news agency has come up!😕
>
> Isn’t that scary that you don’t know whats happening around the world and have to go to Chinese sources to see what’s happening about the Turkish ships :eek:
> **[World Press Freedom Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index)**
>
> The World Press Freedom Index (WPFI) is an annual ranking of 180 countries compiled and published by Reporters Without Borders (RSF) since 2002 based upon the assessment of the non-governmental organization as well as surveys of professionals around the world, of the countries' press freedom records in the previous year. It intends to reflect the degree of freedom that journalists, news organizations, and netizens have in each country, and the efforts made by authorities to respect this The W...
The reason you didn’t see it in Western news is because most likely it’s crap. I’m sorry to tell you, but you live in a land where a good percent of what is presented to you as fact is most likely propaganda.
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### Author:  [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/18 "2010-05-12T17:57:31Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> [World Press Freedom Index - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index)
>
> The reason you didn’t see it in Western news is because most likely it’s crap. I’m sorry to tell you, but you live in a land where a good percent of what is presented to you as fact is most likely propaganda.
From link: Interesting to see Israel ranked 93rd, only slightly behind such know stalwarts of the free press such as Senegal, Mongolia, Haiti Kuwait and the United Arab Emirate.
But none the less, as I linked to in my prior post, [The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=175223) picks up the same “propaganda.”
---
### Author:  [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/19 "2010-05-12T18:20:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> The show ran [on Turkish state-run television](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLF150215)
That link refers to a TRT television show called “Separation”. TRT is like PBS, its programming is not an extension of government policy, but kudos to Israel for the double insult of asking Turkey to censor its programming and imply that it runs propaganda through TRT.
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> state-run television depicting a friendly nation’s armed forces as blood crazed baby killers and [URL=“[Israel and Turkey Row Over TV Show - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/International/israel-turkey-row-tv-show/story?id=9538308)”]furthering
That link refers to a SHOW TV (PRIVATELY RUN) show called Valley of the Wolves (probably Ambush) and that is what caused the insulting behavior of the Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister’s toward Turkey’s ambassador. Great job Israel on insulting Turkey in multiple ways yet again.
So yes, both governments are playing parts in harming relations.
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> it’s rather disingenuous to claim that a show on state-run television
Since you can’t get your facts straight in your rush to present Israel as super good and honest maybe you should be careful in calling other posters disingenuous.
Don’t forget that there was never a peep from Erdogan about Gaza until after Israel made the Turkish government look like a bunch of idiots (sounds like a pattern of treating their friends like idiots) while they mediated talks between Israel and Syria.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/20 "2010-05-12T18:34:22Z")
> [@RedFury](#):
>
> From link: Interesting to see Israel ranked 93rd, only slightly behind such know stalwarts of the free press such as Senegal, Mongolia, Haiti Kuwait and the United Arab Emirate.
>
> But none the less, as I linked to in my prior post, [The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=175223) picks up the same “propaganda.”
Well here, say that there’s two ant colonies. One of these ant colonies, the blue ants, gets crumbs dropped from an ape that lives nearby. The other one, the red ants, doesn’t and is fairly incompetent about gathering food besides. Now the apes are hated by a group of walruses, whereas the apes really don’t care about the walruses one way or another. In fact the apes don’t even much care about the blue ants beyond that their nest is in their territory and they don’t want people messing about in their territory.
Now, a group of red ants decides to go over and stir up some shit with the blue ants. The walruses put up a big campaign that someone’s invading the territory of the blue ants, saying that the apes are sure to come in and do evil things or that the blue ants will do evil things because they’re so close to the apes.
But the apes, they don’t really give a damn. After all, we’re talking about freaking ants and a small group of ants coming into their territory to wave their arms about and flash their ass isn’t exactly something that needs to be paid attention to if you’re an ape.
But of course the blue ants do care because, hey, they’re the target.
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