# Russia, with Hamas and Syria today and Turkey tomorrow. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076 "2010-05-11T18:20:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/21 "2010-05-12T20:01:04Z")
So just to clarify: -Edrogan claims Muslims cannot possibly commit genocide and calls Israel’s conduct, sanctioned by the 4th Geneva Convention, worse than Darfur. You blame Israel. -Turkish state-run TV broadcasts a show demonizing their ostensible allies and furthering the Blood Libel and Israel complains. You blame Israel. -[Syria suspends Turkish mediated talks](http://www.haaretz.com/news/turkey-we-re-ready-to-relaunch-israel-syria-talks-1.271621). You blame Israel. I think I’m detecting a pattern. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > That link refers to a TRT television show called “Separation” […]kudos to Israel for the double insult of asking Turkey to censor its programming and imply that it runs propaganda through TRT. TRT is a state owned and operated channel. Nor is it an insult to ask an ostensibly friendly nation not to run filth on its state-television channel. Nor is saying that the state shouldn’t be serving as the publisher for objectionable content equal to the bombastic claim of “censorship”. But of course Turkey does censor its privately owned TV networks, anyway. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Valley of the Wolves And yep, oops, I had the wrong link in my cache. It was indeed Ayrilik, shown on Turkey’s state-run TV, [that furthered the Blood Libel with scenes of Israelis kidnapping children.](http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LA16Ak01.html) Of course, you’re still wrong on the facts and the context. The RTUK has shown that it’s quite able and willing to issue warnings and regulate Turkish TV in general. Specifically another iteration of “Valley of the Wolves” (“: Terror”) was pulled after the RTUK threatened the station with a loss of its license. Guess it’s not so “insulting” to ask that Turkey do what it’s on record as doing before, nor is it “insulting” to state that a government-run TV network is responsible for the messages but out over the airwaves by that network. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/22 "2010-05-12T21:05:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So just to clarify: > -Edrogan claims Muslims cannot possibly commit genocide and calls Israel’s conduct, sanctioned by the 4th Geneva Convention, worse than Darfur. You blame Israel. Nope, never did that. In fact I think Erdogan’s statement was embarrassing at best and an indication of a really stupid and dangerous world view at worst. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > -Turkish state-run TV broadcasts a show demonizing their ostensible allies and furthering the Blood Libel and Israel complains. You blame Israel. If I were to blame anyone for a TV show I would blame the writers, directors and producers I guess. None of which have anything to do with the government and its policies. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > -[Syria suspends Turkish mediated talks](http://www.haaretz.com/news/turkey-we-re-ready-to-relaunch-israel-syria-talks-1.271621). You blame Israel. I never laid blame for anything, but Erdogan does blame Israel for the breakdown in talks. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I think I’m detecting a pattern. Yes, you’re paranoid, knowing is half the battle. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > TRT is a state owned and operated channel. > Nor is it an insult to ask an ostensibly friendly nation not to run filth on its state-television channel. Nor is saying that the state shouldn’t be serving as the publisher for objectionable content equal to the bombastic claim of “censorship”. But of course Turkey does censor its privately owned TV networks, anyway. Doesn’t make it okay to ask them to censor their content. It’s not their fault that sort of programming might have an audience. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And yep, oops, I had the wrong link in my cache. It was indeed Ayrilik, shown on Turkey’s state-run TV, [that furthered the Blood Libel with scenes of Israelis kidnapping children.](http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LA16Ak01.html) > > Of course, you’re still wrong on the facts and the context. The RTUK has shown that it’s quite able and willing to issue warnings and regulate Turkish TV in general. Specifically another iteration of “Valley of the Wolves” (“: Terror”) was pulled after the RTUK threatened the station with a loss of its license. Guess it’s not so “insulting” to ask that Turkey do what it’s on record as doing before, nor is it “insulting” to state that a government-run TV network is responsible for the messages but out over the airwaves by that network. I’m not wrong on the context, I never said anything about Turkey’s history of censorship. I wouldn’t try to defend Turkey’s history of censorship. I would prefer they didn’t censor any of this stuff. The fact is that the current Israeli government responded to the plot of TV shows by embarrassing the Turkish ambassador and declaring the Turkish government should have the shows removed. These are not the actions of friends. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/23 "2010-05-12T21:16:38Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Nope, never did that Yes, you did: > [@](#): > > I think Erdogan’s poor choice of words to describe his apathy over arguing Darfur vs. Gaza reflects the decision made by the Turkish government that there is very little upside to pursuing close relations with Israel > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I never laid blame for anything Yes, you did. > [@](#): > > Don’t forget that there was never a peep from Erdogan about Gaza until after Israel made the Turkish government look like a bunch of idiots (sounds like a pattern of treating their friends like idiots) > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I’m not wrong on the context, I never said anything about Turkey’s history of censorship. Yes, you did. > [@](#): > > kudos to Israel for the double insult of asking Turkey to censor its programming and imply that it runs propaganda through TRT. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > These are not the actions of friends. So you handwave away the existence of such shows on Turkey’s state-run television network and Edrogan’s own comments, since those are obviously friendly and… you blame Israel. That pattern seems to be holding. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/24 "2010-05-12T21:21:35Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Yes, you’re paranoid, knowing is half the battle. Personal insults aren’t allowed in Great Debates, **Inbred Mm domesticus**. Please don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/25 "2010-05-12T22:03:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Well here, say that there’s two ant colonies. One of these ant colonies, the blue ants, gets crumbs dropped from an ape that lives nearby. The other one, the red ants, doesn’t and is fairly incompetent about gathering food besides. Now the apes are hated by a group of walruses, whereas the apes really don’t care about the walruses one way or another. In fact the apes don’t even much care about the blue ants beyond that their nest is in their territory and they don’t want people messing about in their territory. > > Now, a group of red ants decides to go over and stir up some shit with the blue ants. The walruses put up a big campaign that someone’s invading the territory of the blue ants, saying that the apes are sure to come in and do evil things or that the blue ants will do evil things because they’re so close to the apes. > > But the apes, they don’t really give a damn. After all, we’re talking about freaking ants and a small group of ants coming into their territory to wave their arms about and flash their ass isn’t exactly something that needs to be paid attention to if you’re an ape. > > But of course the blue ants do care because, hey, they’re the target. Hmm…yeah, exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/26 "2010-05-12T23:17:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Personal insults aren’t allowed in Great Debates, **Inbred Mm domesticus**. Please don’t do this again. Sorry. I guess being called disingenuous isn’t a personal insult. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/27 "2010-05-12T23:35:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, you did: If anything the statement you are quoting would be blaming the Turkish government: > [@](#): > > I think Erdogan’s poor choice of words to describe his apathy over arguing Darfur vs. Gaza reflects the decision made by the Turkish government that there is very little upside to pursuing close relations with Israel > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, you did. Ok screw it, I do blame the Israeli government for the souring of relations between Turkey and Israel. The government made a miscalculation over Erdogan’s response to the Gaza invasion and the AKP’s desire to make Turkey into a regional power (exemplified by mediating negotiations). It was arrogant not to include the Turkish government in the decision, but the Turkish government can’t hope to be a regional power just by wishing it to be so. I also think Iran is currently making an ass out of the Turkish government but that isn’t important right now. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, you did. Just because somebody who is your friend has engaged in bad behavior before doesn’t mean you should ask them to engage in bad behavior again when it suits you. So no, I never said anything about Turkey’s history of censorship. I did say something about the Israeli government asking Turkey to censor programming. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > So you handwave away the existence of such shows on Turkey’s state-run television network and Edrogan’s own comments, since those are obviously friendly and… you blame Israel. > > That pattern seems to be holding. Yes, the pattern where you mischaracterize everything I say is holding quite well. I’m sorry for assuming that it was the combination of my words filtered through a paranoid mind frame that led to your writing before. It was wrong of me. Now it is clearer what you are trying to do. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/28 "2010-05-12T23:53:34Z")
Just to recap: > [@you](#): > > there was never a peep from Erdogan about Gaza until after Israel made the Turkish government look like a bunch of idiots (sounds like a pattern of treating their friends like idiots) while they mediated talks between Israel and Syria. > [@you](#): > > > [@me](#): > > > > -Syria suspends Turkish mediated talks. You blame Israel. > > I never laid blame for anything, but Erdogan does blame Israel for the breakdown in talks. There is a problem with someone misrepresenting your statements. I suggest you take it up with that “you” guy. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > If anything the statement you are quoting would be blaming the Turkish government So you are arguing that the Turkish government was in the wrong when they made their strategic calculations? Sure sounded like you were minimizing Edrogan’s comments in the context of supporting Turkey’s strategic stance. If you believe that Turkey is clearly wrong on its analysis, please say so for the record. Clearly and unambiguously, if I’m wrong that is. Unless of course I’m right and you were supporting that, in which case it’s not quite clear why you’re denying it now. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Ok screw it, I do blame the Israeli government for the souring of relations between Turkey and Israel. The government made a miscalculation over Erdogan’s response to the Gaza invasion So you now agree that your statement of “I never laid blame for anything, but Erdogan does blame Israel for the breakdown in talks.” directly contradicts your previous statement where you were opining in your own words that "Israel made the Turkish government look like a bunch of idiots (sounds like a pattern of treating their friends like idiots) "? As for the fact that Edrogan accused Israel of acts worse than the genocidal conflict in Darfur and Israel responded as if that was beyond the pale and your response is to… blame Israel? Care to explain that reasoning? How should a nation respond, exactly, when one of the heads of state of another nation accuses it of being worse than genocidal? And explain how the claim that a nation is worse than genocidal doesn’t “sour” anything, but getting annoyed about that claim, does. Is this another example of “Israeli response to Hamas rockets threatens ceasefire?” > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > So no, I never said anything about Turkey’s history of censorship. I did say something about the Israeli government asking Turkey to censor programming. Again, context matters. You claimed that it was an “insult” to ask the Turkish government to do something it’s done many times before, ignoring or simply glossing over the fact that it’s no insult to ask a government to employ its official general policy to a specific example. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > you mischaracterize everything I say You may have a hard time claiming that while admitting, as above, that not only was I correct but that you had to contradict and disown your own words and claim that you were merely repeating Edrogan’s claims when you stated them as your own views. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/29 "2010-05-13T00:48:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just to recap: There is a problem with someone misrepresenting your statements. I suggest you take it up with that “you” guy. I can’t continue with how dumb the argument you are trying to make is. It’s clear what I was saying, you go right ahead and make it anything you wish. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > So you are arguing that the Turkish government was in the wrong when they made their strategic calculations? Sure sounded like you were minimizing Edrogan’s comments in the context of supporting Turkey’s strategic stance. If you believe that Turkey is clearly wrong on its analysis, please say so for the record. Clearly and unambiguously, if I’m wrong that is. Unless of course I’m right and you were supporting that, in which case it’s not quite clear why you’re denying it now. You’ve added a lot into my statements and I can see that you are arguing with an imaginary inbred mouse. Maybe when you are done with him you can see that I was making an objective analysis of a policy decision. If you think I am making a poor analysis of current Turkish foreign policy then feel free to argue it. I only jumped into this thread when I was looking for a clarification on Erdogan’s and other’s parts played in the souring of Turkish-Israeli relations. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > So you now agree that your statement of “I never laid blame for anything, but Erdogan does blame Israel for the breakdown in talks.” directly contradicts your previous statement where you were opining in your own words that "Israel made the Turkish government look like a bunch of idiots (sounds like a pattern of treating their friends like idiots) "? I had not made any statement one way or another about Israel’s responsibility for the souring of relations prior to “OK screw it”. Once again, there is an imaginary person you are arguing, but the real person is responding to you. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > As for the fact that Edrogan accused Israel of acts worse than the genocidal conflict in Darfur and Israel responded as if that was beyond the pale and your response is to… blame Israel? > Care to explain that reasoning? Look you said Erdogan did his part and I said there are other parts, and so on… > [@FinnAgain](#): > > How should a nation respond, exactly, when one of the heads of state of another nation accuses it of being worse than genocidal? And explain how the claim that a nation is worse than genocidal doesn’t “sour” anything, but getting annoyed about that claim, does. Is this another example of “Israeli response to Hamas rockets threatens ceasefire?” You probably know the drill by now, but real me vs. imaginary me. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Again, context matters. You claimed that it was an “insult” to ask the Turkish government to do something it’s done many times before, ignoring or simply glossing over the fact that it’s no insult to ask a government to employ its official general policy to a specific example. Of course you are ignoring the context in which the request was made. Under the circumstances it is only an insult. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You may have a hard time claiming that while admitting, as above, that not only was I correct but that you had to contradict and disown your own words and claim that you were merely repeating Edrogan’s claims when you stated them as your own views. Actually you pretty much mischaracterize the things I say, the intent behind my words and the attitude I have toward Turkish and Israeli governments. Pretty much the whole thing. The only time you’ve argued anything I actually said was in the quote prior to this one. The rest is just your pseudo **Inbred Mm Domesticus**. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/30 "2010-05-13T01:17:22Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I had not made any statement one way or another about Israel’s responsibility for the souring of relations prior to “OK screw it” Hrmm, do you agree with that “you” guy? > [@you](#): > > there was never a peep from Erdogan about Gaza until after Israel made the Turkish government look like a bunch of idiots (sounds like a pattern of treating their friends like idiots) while they mediated talks between Israel and Syria. Damn, that “you” guy is disagreeing with you again. Of course, now your response is to explicitly state that getting upset about someone saying a nation is acting worse than a genocidal regime is what sours a relationship and not the accusation of worse-than-genocidal-conduct, so again I’m not sure why you’re disagreeing. Your argument is “So I just implied it earlier and then explicitly confirmed it later. Doesn’t count.” > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Of course you are ignoring the context in which the request was made. Under the circumstances it is only an insult. You ignored the context that it’s an official Turkish government policy that’s been used freely in the past (and you still haven’t provided any cite for an official Israeli demand for censorship, I might add), and now you’re claiming that somehow it was an “insulting” request because of some undefined context that’s actually the thing being ignored. Nifty. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/31 "2010-05-13T01:38:00Z")
What’s news about an Islamic country (albeit a moderate one in the case of Turkey), a terrorist Islamic regime in Hamas and a puppet of a radical Islamic regime in Syria having talks/business with their arms supplier (Russia)? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/32 "2010-05-13T03:55:22Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > What’s news about an Islamic country (albeit a moderate one in the case of Turkey), a terrorist Islamic regime in Hamas and a puppet of a radical Islamic regime in Syria having talks/business with their arms supplier (Russia)? Just to be clear, Russia supplies very little of Turkey’s military equipment. In fact Turkey almost certainly uses more gear from Israel ( M60T tanks, re-furbished F-4’s and F-5’s, as well as advanced Harpy and Heron drone aircraft ) than from Russia ( the Kornet-E anti-tank missile system primarily, plus a little bit of old Soviet gear mostly acquired from old East German stocks and the like ). ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/33 "2010-05-13T14:28:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You ignored the context that it’s an official Turkish government policy that’s been used freely in the past (and you still haven’t provided any cite for an official Israeli demand for censorship, I might add) I think you will agree upon reflection that “used freely” is an exaggeration. The [RTUK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT%C3%9CK) usually censors media in a context of Turkish sensibilities and not what foreign powers might think of their broadcasts. The examples provided in the link and the RTUK response to “Valley of the Wolves: Terror” speak to that. The insulting part of what Avigdor Lieberman had to say: [Broadcasting this series is a serious case of state-sponsored incitement.](http://www.ynet.co.il/english/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3790178,00.html) I think any reasonable person would see that the accusation of state-sponsored incitement, as though the government were responsible for the making and broadcast of the show, is insulting. The [Turkish response](http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=48538) clearly shows they have no interest in censorship and leave the issue up to the RTUK. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > and now you’re claiming that somehow it was an “insulting” request because of some undefined context that’s actually the thing being ignored. Nifty. In the context of poor relations precipitated by the Gaza campaign and Erdogan’s desire to keep his mouth open as much as possible to make the accusation of state-sponsored anti-Israel propaganda is insulting. In the more [recent example](http://abcnews.go.com/International/israel-turkey-row-tv-show/story?id=9538308), Danny Ayalon clearly wished to embarrass Ahmet Oguz Celikkol over Valley of the Wolves. The only reasonable interpretation is that he feels the government is responsible for the privately-run show. In both cases the Turkish government is said to be responsible and in both cases the Israeli response is clearly insulting. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/34 "2010-05-13T14:57:44Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I think you will agree upon reflection that “used freely” is an exaggeration. From the very first line of your cite where it talks about verdicts: > [@](#): > > RTÜK is known for sanctioning the broadcasts of a large number of domestic productions > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I think any reasonable person would see that the accusation of state-sponsored incitement, as though the government were responsible for the making and broadcast of the show, is insulting. You’re talking about a show that was bought by and published by Turkey’s state-run television network. So, um, yes. The government was responsible for broadcasting the show. More likely than not, they bought the production rights as well and the series either wouldn’t have been made or wouldn’t have been shown if not for TRT. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > the accusation of state-sponsored anti-Israel propaganda is insulting. It’s almost as if the state was sponsoring the purchase and publication of anti-Israel propaganda through their official state-run media services. Facts sure can be insulting! > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > The only reasonable interpretation is that he feels the government is responsible for the privately-run show. As already cited, Turkey is quite free with censoring things on its television networks that it doesn’t like. That means that they, at the very least, condone if not actively approve of others. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/35 "2010-05-13T18:55:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > From the very first line of your cite where it talks about verdicts…As already cited, Turkey is quite free with censoring things on its television networks that it doesn’t like. That means that they, at the very least, condone if not actively approve of others. Since they do not censor, ban, threaten, or even strongly frown on media that directly or indirectly, real or imagined criticizes any culture other than that of the Turks and more precisely actions of the Turkish government, then it makes sense that they don’t care about the single episode from the TRT series titled “Separation”. This is clearly explained by the Turkish official in the link I provided above. Regardless, that episode is not the equivalent to an act of a state enemy and is not state sponsored incitement as is clearly the accusation made by Lieberman. It’s a TV show that did not meet the criteria for being banned and so it was run. Maybe Lieberman can try to convince the Turks to adopt an insulting Israeliness provision to article 301. As for VotW, holy shit, a liberal democracy doesn’t come down hard on every single thing produced by its citizens in accordance with the current law, imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/36 "2010-05-13T19:37:18Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Since they do not censor, ban, threaten, or even strongly frown on media that directly or indirectly, real or imagined criticizes any culture other than that of the Turks and more precisely actions of the Turkish government Again, your own cite contradicts you. > [@](#): > > RTÜK is known for sanctioning the broadcasts of a large number of domestic productions, such as Gülşen’s video clip for the song Sarışınım,[3] on grounds of “violating the national and moral values of the community and Turkish family structure” (RTÜK Law Art. 4/e), “obscenity” (ibid. 4/t), and “impairing the physical, mental, and moral development of young people and children” (ibid. 4/z). Among foreign productions sanctioned by RTÜK for similar rationales are Wild Things 3,[4] Nip/Tuck, and Gossip Girl.[5] In September 2009, RTÜK banned the broadcasting of the video clip for the song Love Sex Magic, stating that the video “contains sexual outfits, dancing and scenes that are contrary to the development of children and youth and morality in general.”[6] Whether or not asking those guidelines to be expanded to other offensive content is reasonable is a bit different than your claim that asking them to expand their standards was an “insult”. (and by the way, you’ve never cited any official Israeli demand to censor it and ignored my request for a cite) > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > is not state sponsored incitement Yes, it’s just incitement sponsored by the state. I see the distinction you’re making. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/37 "2010-05-13T20:10:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Again, your own cite contradicts you. No, it didn’t at all. I clearly was speaking in the context of criticizing a culture/government, but you only like context when it suits you I think, so I am unsurprised that you said that. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Whether or not asking those guidelines to be expanded to other offensive content is reasonable is a bit different than your claim that asking them to expand their standards was an “insult”. (and by the way, you’ve never cited any official Israeli demand to censor it and ignored my request for a cite) Lieberman wasn’t making a polite request to write-up an Article 301a. He was condemning the airing of a television show viewed as critical of Israel in the context of souring negotiations over Israeli actions and Erdogan’s speeches. It’s an insult. An example of a non-insulting response to such a TV show would be to ignore it entirely, not turn it into something that it isn’t. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, it’s just incitement sponsored by the state. > I see the distinction you’re making. Can you demonstrate that the single episode of this TV series or that this TV series generally is a government-planned and executed program to incite the populace against Israel? That it is the equivalent of Hamas Sesame Street? Why can’t you admit that these responses to TV shows were just poor diplomacy and insulting in their nature, especially in the context of souring relations? Are you really tied to the idea that these are appropriate responses to TV shows? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/38 "2010-05-13T20:22:00Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I clearly was speaking in the context of criticizing a culture/government Yes… and your cite contradicts you. Most of the acts listed do not criticize anything but were seen as objectionable. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Lieberman wasn’t making a polite request to write-up So you have no cite at all for your claim that they demanded it to be censored. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > It’s an insult. Again, Turkey’s state-run television network airs objectionable content, Israeli mentions this fact and you… blame Israel. And claim that any critical response other than ignoring it is an “insult”. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Can you demonstrate that the single episode of this TV series or that this TV series generally is a government-planned and executed program to incite the populace against Israel? “Sure, it was incitement that was state sponsored, but can you prove that the government planned and executed that incitement before they sponsored it?” Bring the goalposts back now. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > insulting in their nature, especially in the context of souring relations? Again, state-sponsored trash, another nation complains, your response is to blame that other nation and claim that it’s “insulting” and they should’ve just kept quiet. And I’m not sure what you think ‘context’ means… But again, instead of objecting to a state sponsoring offensive content that sours relations, you claim that the response was what was at issue and, yep, blame Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/39 "2010-05-14T03:48:01Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes… and your cite contradicts you. Most of the acts listed do not criticize anything but were seen as objectionable. Or you could ignore everything except the one or two words you are most interested in. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Again, Turkey’s state-run television network airs objectionable content, Israeli mentions this fact and you… blame Israel. And claim that any critical response other than ignoring it is an “insult”. Sure they just “mentioned” it. Now I know why you like the word disingenuous, it’s useful. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Sure, it was incitement that was state sponsored, but can you prove that the government planned and executed that incitement before they sponsored it?” Bring the goalposts back now. This is about as reasonable as claiming any act done by a national of any country is due to that indvidual acting as a representative of his/her government. In other words, stupidly meaningless. I just put the goalposts where they belong. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Again, state-sponsored trash, another nation complains, your response is to blame that other nation and claim that it’s “insulting” and they should’ve just kept quiet. And I’m not sure what you think ‘context’ means… But again, instead of objecting to a state sponsoring offensive content that sours relations, you claim that the response was what was at issue and, yep, blame Israel. If it had been state-sponsored trash in the sense that Lieberman clearly meant his accusations then I would completely agree with this assessment. Instead, given the facts, your assessment is a whiny fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076/40 "2010-05-15T10:39:09Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Actually you pretty much mischaracterize the things I say, the intent behind my words and the attitude I have toward Turkish and Israeli governments. Pretty much the whole thing. The only time you’ve argued anything I actually said was in the quote prior to this one. The rest is just your pseudo **Inbred Mm Domesticus**. Pretty much SOP re that interlocutor, [as past discussions have explored.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=556315) A very “special” lens through which all is viewed. Rather circus like actually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-with-hamas-and-syria-today-and-turkey-tomorrow/539076.md?page=3)