# Russian and Chinese hacking. What can / should be done? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596 "2016-09-22T20:09:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/21 "2016-09-23T20:24:44Z")
[QUOTE=LSLGuy] I can’t say for sure the allegations were accurate. I also can’t say they weren’t. Many supposedly informed sources at the time said they were. [/QUOTE] Yet we can say, without a shred of doubt, that the Chinese are doing this. So, we have your CT about the US government stealing corporate data from European countries and passing them directly to US companies which has very little in support of it besides the belief of some that it happened verse the reality of China doing this repeatedly. Hmmm…yeah, guess it’s exactly the same!! > [@](#): > > I suppose where you and I differ about the e.g. Chinese is that you sound outraged. My reaction is more “Well duh! Of course they’re doing it. As long as it’s physically possible and clandestine enough to avoid a prompt shooting war, everyone does it to everyone else at the limit of their ability and budget. For whichever irritatingly hostile ‘it’ you care to name.” Do you have any actually evidence that any other country (besides the US in your CT) operates this way? Evidence that other countries not only steal corporate data and pass it on to their own companies but that have a structure and process in place to do so, and to assist their companies to reverse engineer that data with the intent to drive foreign companies out of business, steal their market share and enrich their own companies in the process? Because, frankly, I can’t think of many examples…even the Russians don’t do this, afaik. > [@](#): > > The idea that we’re the Good Guys and they’re the Bad Guys is fundamentally flawed and naïve. Reality is much closer to we’re the OK-to-Mildly-Bad Big Guys and they’re the Bad-to-Worse Slightly-Smaller Guys. Or, I guess it’s all the same. All relative. Imprisoning people for doing a crime is exactly like imprisoning them for political reasons and harvesting their organs! Censoring kiddie porn is exactly the same as censoring things because they make the state look bad or simply because you don’t think people should know stuff! It’s all exactly the same! No good guys or bad guys…the US government and the CCP are exactly alike! Putin and Obama are no different, really! Gotcha. > [@](#): > > Most of Americans’ angst is more about becoming less extra-big versus the opposition rather than about being less extra-good versus the opposition. Sure. Has nothing to do with causing 10’s of billions in monetary loss or millions of jobs…it’s really all about us being less extra-big verse not so big. Or, er, something. We aren’t super-sized goodness anymore, so…profit! Everything is the same! As always, it’s eye opening to see the responses to these subjects here in GD. It’s so ironic that many who complain about the US actions and argue vehemently when folks say ‘well, everyone does it’ to justify US actions do exactly the same thing when it’s China doing stuff…and just handwaving away what China does, no matter how heinous it is (such as the organ harvesting thing which got a resounding meh here in GD when it was brought up). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/22 "2016-09-23T20:33:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, first off there isn’t any proof, afaik, that the US was the one who did that attack. There are certainly indications it MIGHT have been us, based on the code used, but no smoking gun. Could have been Israel, could have been another country concerned with Iran’s nuclear program. A day or two after it happened, both the NSA and the Israeli equivalent issued statements that - while not saying anything explicit - sure the hell read like a high five to one another. I don’t think there’s any real doubt about that one. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/23 "2016-09-23T20:40:12Z")
Ideally, I’d like us to prove it, block it, publish the proof, and then permanently ban anyone at all even remotely involved from dealing with the United States in any way at all, even as an employee of, or investor in, another company. Then tie trade restrictions for all Chinese companies, as well as for all American companies who use Chinese companies for any and all functions. The point is, to get the Chinese and American capitalists who are profiting from all this, to directly see that their own self-interests lie in strenuously combating the behavior. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/24 "2016-09-23T20:42:42Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > A day or two after it happened, both the NSA and the Israeli equivalent issued statements that - while not saying anything explicit - sure the hell read like a high five to one another. > > I don’t think there’s any real doubt about that one. There is always doubt. 😉 Personally, I do think it was the US, but it’s sort of like the Israeli nuclear program…while everyone ‘knows’ they have it, they still having officially acknowledged it nor is there any (unclassified) evidence that they have one or if they do to what extent they do. Same with this…the code certainly has the fingerprints of earlier, US-based cyber-attack code, but then, as we’ve seen, that sort of thing can be stolen or even get out into the wild and be used and morphed by others. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/25 "2016-09-23T22:32:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Do you have any actually evidence that any other country (besides the US in your CT) operates this way? Evidence that other countries not only steal corporate data and pass it on to their own companies but that have a structure and process in place to do so, and to assist their companies to reverse engineer that data with the intent to drive foreign companies out of business, steal their market share and enrich their own companies in the process? Because, frankly, I can’t think of many examples…even the Russians don’t do this, afaik. France has been so accused, particularly in the late 1980’s-early 1990’s. Whether they still operate as heavily in such a fashion is open to question ( and of course there was always deniability ). But they are still considered major players in the game of economic espionage. Behind China, but up there with Russia and Israel according to a 2013 NIE. Robert Gates in 2014: \*“In terms of the next capable next to the Chinese are probably the French. And they’ve been doing it a long time,” Gates said. “France has been a mercantilist country. The government and business have operated hand-in-hand since the time of Louis XIV. This is not exactly a new development in France.” Gates went on to explain that for years now the “French Intelligence Services have been breaking into the hotel rooms of American businessmen and surreptitiously downloading their laptops, if they felt those laptops had technological information, or competitive information that would be useful to French” companies.\* From [here](http://thediplomat.com/2014/05/robert-gates-most-countries-conduct-economic-espionage/). Gates claimed the U.S. is one of “the few” countries that doesn’t get involved in such shenanigans. But then wikileaks claimed otherwise last year, specifically the U.S. targeting France :D. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/26 "2016-09-23T23:37:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > . There is a huge difference, IMHO, between attacking Iran’s (illegal) nuclear program using cyber attacks \*\*and a nation state attacking a corporation, stealing their intellectual property, handing that data over and even helping their own state-sponsored companies to reverse engineer \*\* or otherwise use that data to put out cloned or pirated versions of the software or hardware, then using their own court system to legitimize the state-sponsored companies claims. (bolding mine) The USA does exactly that in western countries, so I would assume also in Russia/China. Industrial espionage is a big activity of American intelligence. I’ve heard way more often of the USA spying on French companies than on French officials. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/27 "2016-09-24T00:24:25Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Get that Mcafee fella working on it, pronto! He’s too busy with his hookers and coke. We’ve lost a surprising number of talented programmers that way. > [@Quartz](#): > > > [@AK84](#): > > > > Yeah, as if the Americans are not spying on everyone and everything. > > Two - or more - wrongs don’t make a right. Or, in the case of the Chinese, two - or more - Wongs. What, too soon? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/28 "2016-09-24T02:30:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, first off there isn’t any proof, afaik, that the US was the one who did that attack. There are certainly indications it MIGHT have been us, based on the code used, but no smoking gun. Could have been Israel, could have been another country concerned with Iran’s nuclear program. So, instead of the U.S.A. it might have been their surrogate Israel. Hmmm. > [@XT](#): > > Yet we can say, without a shred of doubt, that the Chinese are doing this. Cite? Couldn’t the hacking have been done by their surrogate, the Secretariat of CPC Hangzhou Municipal Committee? Yes, I’m being a bit silly … but your reporting doesn’t seem impartial. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/29 "2016-09-26T16:35:32Z")
[QUOTE=septimus] So, instead of the U.S.A. it might have been their surrogate Israel. Hmmm. [/QUOTE] 😛 > [@](#): > > Cite? Couldn’t the hacking have been done by their surrogate, the Secretariat of CPC Hangzhou Municipal Committee? > > Yes, I’m being a bit silly … but your reporting doesn’t seem impartial. So, does that mean you want a cite for this or not? What part of my ‘reporting’ do you find skewed? Are you seriously questioning whether China hacks not just other countries but uses its cyber-warfare group to hack private corporations, steal their IP and then help Chinese companies to reverse engineer and then use that IP for their own gains? Or are you questioning my partiality wrt US use of cyber-warfare verse China’s use (i.e. the argument that seems a recurring theme in these threads that ‘it’s all the same and the US is just as bad’)? I really can’t tell. If you clicked on any of the YouTube videos from China Uncensored I posted in this thread then you’ll see that they actually bother to cite relevant information in their thread…you don’t have to watch the video to get the info. If you just don’t want to click the link I’m sure that 5 seconds of Googling will provide links galore about China’s cyber security antics…and not just from US sources, since this is pretty well known (at ‘water is wet’ level) and wide spread. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/30 "2016-09-26T18:01:24Z")
Hacking seems to have created a new normal between opposing nations. Technically its an attack, but its an allowed one that we sweep under the rug and don’t want to escalate. They hack us, we hack them, and both parties understand that the hacking won’t (at least for now) rise to actual physical weapons usage. The only thing we can do is hack them back. Maybe we need a MAD doctrine for computer systems; they hack us, we crash their entire electric grid, post uncensored information on their websites, and plant viruses to crash them later until they repent and stop hacking us. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/31 "2016-09-26T19:32:58Z")
> [@XT](#): > > 😛 Most of us agree that both the Chinese and U.S. governments engage in cyber espionage. And I, for one, will join you in applauding U.S. efforts while deploring China’s. My point was simply that the the contrast in your phrasing “Well, first off there isn’t any proof, afaik …” “Yet we can say, without a shred of doubt, that the Chinese are doing this.” was biased obfuscation. Non-objective phrasing detracts from the merits of an argument. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/32 "2016-09-26T21:23:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Most of us agree that both the Chinese and U.S. governments engage in cyber espionage. And I, for one, will join you in applauding U.S. efforts while deploring China’s. > > My point was simply that the the contrast in your phrasing > “Well, first off there isn’t any proof, afaik …” > “Yet we can say, without a shred of doubt, that the Chinese are doing this.” > was biased obfuscation. Non-objective phrasing detracts from the merits of an argument. Well, except that, afaik, there ISN’T any proof that the US did the Stuxnet hack (and, of course, that was an Iranian facility run by the Iranian government, which would make it fair game as I already conceded above). There is some evidence, but no smoking gun. It could have been other countries that did it. It almost certainly was a nation state, and certainly it could have been the US, but there isn’t any proof positive. As for the other, there ISN’T a shred of doubt that the Chinese government has and continue to hack private corporations, stealing their IP and helping Chinese corporations reverse engineer that IP into products that have and continue to compete against the corporations that they stole it from. So, I don’t see it as ‘Non-objective phrasing detracts from the merits of an argument’. Now, you could say, like many in this thread and in similar threads in the past, that there is no real difference between what the US does (spying on foreign governments, foreign nationals, even US corporations and private individuals) is exactly the same as what China is doing (i.e. all of that stuff the US does plus the whole stealing IP stuff)…that’s where I’d disagree. It’s not the same, especially not at the level or the usage of the data the Chinese are doing it. But, to me, that’s the distinction. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/33 "2016-09-26T21:29:58Z")
[Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet) is the Wiki on Stuxnet: > [@](#): > > Israel > > Israel, through Unit 8200,[113][114] has been speculated to be the country behind Stuxnet in many media reports[76][90][115] and by experts such as Richard A. Falkenrath, former Senior Director for Policy and Plans within the US Office of Homeland Security.[116][77] Yossi Melman, who covers intelligence for the Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz and is writing a book about Israeli intelligence, also suspected that Israel was involved, noting that Meir Dagan, the former (up until 2011) head of the national intelligence agency Mossad, had his term extended in 2009 because he was said to be involved in important projects. Additionally, Israel now expects that Iran will have a nuclear weapon in 2014 or 2015 – at least three years later than earlier estimates – without the need for an Israeli military attack on Iranian nuclear facilities; “They seem to know something, that they have more time than originally thought”, he added.[27][48] Israel has not publicly commented on the Stuxnet attack but confirmed that cyberwarfare is now among the pillars of its defense doctrine, with a military intelligence unit set up to pursue both defensive and offensive options.[117][118][119] When questioned whether Israel was behind the virus in the fall of 2010, some Israeli officials[who?] broke into “wide smiles”, fueling speculation that the government of Israel was involved with its genesis.[120] American presidential advisor Gary Samore also smiled when Stuxnet was mentioned,[48] although American officials have indicated that the virus originated abroad.[120] According to The Telegraph, Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that a video celebrating operational successes of Gabi Ashkenazi, retiring IDF Chief of Staff, was shown at his retirement party and included references to Stuxnet, thus strengthening claims that Israel’s security forces were responsible.[121] > > In 2009, a year before Stuxnet was discovered, Scott Borg of the United States Cyber-Consequences Unit (US-CCU)[122] suggested that Israel might prefer to mount a cyber-attack rather than a military strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities.[99] And, in late 2010 Borg stated, “Israel certainly has the ability to create Stuxnet and there is little downside to such an attack, because it would be virtually impossible to prove who did it. So a tool like Stuxnet is Israel’s obvious weapon of choice.”[123] Iran uses P-1 centrifuges at Natanz, the design for which A. Q. Khan stole in 1976 and took to Pakistan. His black market nuclear-proliferation network sold P-1s to, among other customers, Iran. Experts believe that Israel also somehow acquired P-1s and tested Stuxnet on the centrifuges, installed at the Dimona facility that is part of its own nuclear program.[48] The equipment may be from the United States, which received P-1s from Libya’s former nuclear program.[124][48] > > Some have also referred to several clues in the code such as a concealed reference to the word “MYRTUS”, believed to refer to the Myrtle tree, or Hadassah in Hebrew. Hadassah was the birth name of the former Jewish queen of Persia, Queen Esther.[125][126] However, it may be that the “MYRTUS” reference is simply a misinterpreted reference to SCADA components known as RTUs (Remote Terminal Units) and that this reference is actually “My RTUs”–a management feature of SCADA.[127] Also, the number 19790509 appears once in the code and might refer to the date “1979 May 09”, the day Habib Elghanian, a Persian Jew, was executed in Tehran.[53][128][129] Another date that appears in the code is “24 September 2007”, the day that Iran’s president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad spoke at Columbia University and made comments questioning the validity of the Holocaust.[37] Such data is not conclusive, since, as written by Symantec, “Attackers would have the natural desire to implicate another party” with a false flag.[37][53] > United States > > There has also been testimony on the involvement of the United States and its collaboration with Israel,[130][131] with one report stating that “there is vanishingly little doubt that [it] played a role in creating the worm.”[37] It has been reported that the United States, under one of its most secret programs, initiated by the Bush administration and accelerated[citation needed] by the Obama administration, has sought to destroy Iran’s nuclear program by novel methods such as undermining Iranian computer systems. A diplomatic cable obtained by WikiLeaks showed how the United States was advised to target Iran’s nuclear capabilities through ‘covert sabotage’.[132] A New York Times article as early as January 2009 credited a then unspecified program with preventing an Israeli military attack on Iran where some of the efforts focused on ways to destabilize the centrifuges.[133] A Wired article claimed that Stuxnet “is believed to have been created by the United States”.[134] The fact that John Bumgarner, a former intelligence officer and member of the United States Cyber-Consequences Unit (US-CCU), published an article prior to Stuxnet being discovered or deciphered, that outlined a strategic cyberstrike on centrifuges[135] and suggests that cyber attacks are permissible against nation states which are operating uranium enrichment programs that violate international treaties gives some credibility to these claims. Bumgarner pointed out that the centrifuges used to process fuel for nuclear weapons are a key target for cybertage operations and that they can be made to destroy themselves by manipulating their rotational speeds.[136] > > In a March 2012 interview with CBS News’ “60 Minutes”, retired USAF General Michael Hayden – who served as director of both the Central Intelligence Agency and National Security Agency – while denying knowledge of who created Stuxnet said that he believed it had been “a good idea” but that it carried a downside in that it had legitimized the use of sophisticated cyberweapons designed to cause physical damage. Hayden said, “There are those out there who can take a look at this… and maybe even attempt to turn it to their own purposes”. In the same report, Sean McGurk, a former cybersecurity official at the Department of Homeland Security noted that the Stuxnet source code could now be downloaded online and modified to be directed at new target systems. Speaking of the Stuxnet creators, he said, “They opened the box. They demonstrated the capability… It’s not something that can be put back.”[137] > Joint effort and other states and targets > Ambox current red.svg > This section needs to be updated. Please update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. (June 2012) > > In April 2011 Iranian government official Gholam Reza Jalali stated that an investigation had concluded that the United States and Israel were behind the Stuxnet attack.[138] Frank Rieger stated that three European countries’ intelligence agencies agreed that Stuxnet was a joint United States-Israel effort. The code for the Windows injector and the PLC payload differ in style, likely implying collaboration. Other experts believe that a US-Israel cooperation is unlikely because “the level of trust between the two countries’ intelligence and military establishments is not high.”[37] > > A Wired magazine article about US General Keith B. Alexander stated: “And he and his cyberwarriors have already launched their first attack. The cyberweapon that came to be known as Stuxnet was created and built by the NSA in partnership with the CIA and Israeli intelligence in the mid-2000s.”[139] > > China,[140] Jordan, and France are other possibilities, and Siemens may have also participated.[37][130] Langner speculated that the infection may have spread from USB drives belonging to Russian contractors since the Iranian targets were not accessible via the Internet.[20][141] > > Sandro Gaycken from the Free University Berlin argued that the attack on Iran was a ruse to distract from Stuxnet’s real purpose. According to him, its broad dissemination in more than 100,000 industrial plants worldwide suggests a field test of a cyber weapon in different security cultures, testing their preparedness, resilience, and reactions, all highly valuable information for a cyberwar unit.[142] > > The United Kingdom has denied involvement in the worm’s creation.[143] > > Stratfor Documents released by Wikileaks suggest that the International Security Firm ‘Stratfor’ believe that Israel is behind Stuxnet - “But we can’t assume that because they did stuxnet that they are capable of doing this blast as well”.[144] > > In July 2013, Edward Snowden claimed that Stuxnet was cooperatively developed by the United States and Israel.[145] Note that there is some controversy as to who, exactly, did it. Snowden thinks it was a cooperative development between the US and Israel, but if you look at the link it’s him basically speculating…he’s got no actual evidence. There are other countries it could have been. As I said, I BELIEVE it was the US, but I’ve seen no concrete evidence that it was presented at any of the cyber-security conferences or anywhere else, so it’s still a question. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/34 "2016-10-13T04:27:48Z")
Several days now after the United States has officially accused Russia of multiple cyber attacks aimed at influencing the presidential election and a day after Obama has vowed a [proportional response](http://www.wsj.com/articles/white-house-vows-proportional-response-for-russian-dnc-hack-1476220192) this thread’s subject is perhaps even more cogent, and deserves bumping. The WSJ take is linked above. Below is a similar summary [from the NYT](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/09/us/politics/what-options-does-the-us-have-after-accusing-russia-of-hacks.html?_r=0). > [@](#): > > … President Obama’s options range from the mild — naming and shaming the Russians, as he did on Friday — to the more severe, like invoking for the first time a series of economic sanctions that he created by executive order after North Korea’s attack on Sony Pictures Entertainment. The Justice Department could indict the Russians behind the attacks on the Democratic National Committee and the email accounts of prominent individuals, as it did with members of China’s People’s Liberation Army, who have been charged with stealing industrial secrets. > > Or Mr. Obama could sign a secret intelligence finding — similar to many he has issued to authorize Central Intelligence Agency efforts in Syria or drone strikes against the Islamic State — to attack and disable Russian computer servers or expose the financial dealings of President Vladimir V. Putin and his oligarch friends. > > While the last option is tempting, officials say, it would carry risks with the election just a month away. Attacks on online voter registration rolls could sow chaos at polling places, and the election infrastructure has never truly been tested against a power like Russia. The system that underpins American democracy is not even listed as an element of the nation’s critical infrastructure, a list that includes movie theaters and the Jefferson Memorial, among other monuments. > > Just as Henry Kissinger and other American strategists argued decades ago whether it was possible to wage a limited nuclear war, officials at the Pentagon and intelligence agencies, as well as outside experts, have been debating whether it is possible to control the escalation of a cyberconflict. … Personally I suspect that a response will be delayed until after the election and then will be a graded counter-cyber attack, not economic sanctions that would be hard to get the EU to join in on. They will have HRC being on board with them before they are implemented as she will be dealing with the consequences thereof … which could be a series of escalating attacks and counterattacks that could significantly harm both economies and worse. But lack of a strong response is a green light inviting bolder cyber aggression … ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/35 "2016-10-13T09:24:59Z")
What can be done and what should be done are two different questions. The u.S. can hack back, but I don’t know if that would be wise. I think we’re confronting the limitations of American power and it makes us uncomfortable and vulnerable. Perhaps more empathy is required. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/36 "2016-10-13T09:32:30Z")
Generally, anything a country does to us, we can do back. If we’re too scared of even a proportional response than we’re not talking about the limit of American power, we’re talking about being too frightened to act. Now for China, this is easy: take down their Great Firewall. Russia is a little tougher. I doubt Putin cares if we reveal his financial dealings. There are probably ways to hurt them, such as fouling up their government payroll. I just learned this year how shitty the US is at backing things up. Let’s find out what important data Russia has failed to back up. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/37 "2016-10-13T09:32:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Personally I suspect that a response will be delayed until after the election and then will be a graded counter-cyber attack, not economic sanctions that would be hard to get the EU to join in on. They will have HRC being on board with them before they are implemented as she will be dealing with the consequences thereof … which could be a series of escalating attacks and counterattacks that could significantly harm both economies and worse. **But lack of a strong response is a green light inviting bolder cyber aggression …** For the many reasons I’ve laid out before I’m supporting Clinton, but honestly, her foreign policy increasingly scares me. It’s just more neo-colonial America entering into negotiations and ‘resets’ with the assumption of moral supremacy backed by assumptions of economic and technological superiority. For the first time we’re in an intense conflict with a country that can inflict pain in response to pain, and they can adjust the dial to apply different levels of pressure. We’re repeating the same mistakes with Russia that we made in the late 1950s and early 1960s, escalation of rhetoric and tensions without any real understanding of what Russia’s true concerns area. They get framed by ignorant journalists and incompetent diplomats who insist on seeing Russia through the prism of an American or Western value system. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/38 "2016-10-13T09:45:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Generally, anything a country does to us, we can do back. If we’re too scared of even a proportional response than we’re not talking about the limit of American power, we’re talking about being too frightened to act. > > Now for China, this is easy: take down their Great Firewall. Russia is a little tougher. I doubt Putin cares if we reveal his financial dealings. There are probably ways to hurt them, such as fouling up their government payroll. I just learned this year how shitty the US is at backing things up. Let’s find out what important data Russia has failed to back up. Here’s the deal, Adaher: We’re threatening the existence of a regime that is in possession of thousands of nuclear warheads. These aren’t just sanctions; these are threats to a regime, and some would interpret this as a threat to Russian sovereignty. We’re playing right into the fears that Russian nationalists – true nationalists – have been warning about for decades, since before the end of the Cold War. It would be one thing if Russia were invading a recently-liberated Eastern European country just because it decided to have better relations with the West. But there’s more to it than that. The US tried to make NATO stronger and tried to expand it. Moreover, it became active in Eastern European conflicts. Imagine if Russia started involving itself militarily in Central America – we probably would be sounding all kinds of alarm bells. We then proposed American troops in Eastern Europe (New Europe) and missile defense systems. We invaded Iraq and continue to occupy the country. After chiding Russia for invading Afghanistan and helping to oust them, we invaded said country and remain there 15 years later. I could actually go on. Russia has felt threatened and disrespected ever since the end of the Cold War. We ignore these concerns because we arrogantly assumed we had the leverage. Turns out, Russia has leverage of its own. America is increasingly slipping into a multi-polar world, which makes attempting to use ever-weakening alliances to manipulate other world powers a tactically dumb move. We can stamp our feet and insist we’re right but the Putins of the world are going to keep pushing back Which brings me to another point: Russia will not back down. They will only escalate. The Russians are not reckless but they’re not going to tolerate being cornered and manipulated by Western power. They are prepared to escalate a lot more than we are. This is a culture that emerged from the ruins of the Mongol hordes. This is a country that has dealt with and endured extreme hardship against ruthless invaders, and ultimately expelled them. The U.S. is, in their view, just another Mongol horde, just another Third Reich. The people will sacrifice. They will endure. They will forgive Putin far less if he folds. Now if you and the rest of us think Hillary Clinton ought to raise the stakes when in reality we might be able to do real negotiations and find a pragmatic outcome, we’d probably best reconsider that notion. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/39 "2016-10-13T09:51:44Z")
Then you’d better hope that the Democratic Party isn’t taking this personally, because their language suggests that they are. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596/40 "2016-10-13T10:00:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Then you’d better hope that the Democratic Party isn’t taking this personally, because their language suggests that they are. They’ll get over it. I think there’s actually an opportunity for Clinton in the same way there was an opportunity for Reagan. Talk trash in front of the cameras but find common ground behind the scenes. The art of the deal (god I feel nauseated using that phrase) is in finding a way for both sides to avoid losing face. I am not a Russia - East Europe expert but I’m wondering if we might be able to propose the following: - Get Russia to end most damaging hacking in exchange for bilateral talks on a range of issues. - Let Assad have Syria: Obama’s red line was basically an attempt to talk like a tough guy but everyone saw right through it. Never should have used that line. Everyone knew that the anti-war president wasn’t prepared to back it up. - Concentrate on stabilizing Iraq to the extent possible - Get Russian help on ISIS - Rework NATO to include more Russian influence - Scrap missile defense. - Strengthen EU - Russian partnerships and economic cooperation so that Russia feels less threatened by the departure of former states. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-and-chinese-hacking-what-can-should-be-done/766596.md?page=3)