Russian and Chinese hacking. What can / should be done?

[QUOTE=LSLGuy]
I can’t say for sure the allegations were accurate. I also can’t say they weren’t. Many supposedly informed sources at the time said they were.
[/QUOTE]

Yet we can say, without a shred of doubt, that the Chinese are doing this. So, we have your CT about the US government stealing corporate data from European countries and passing them directly to US companies which has very little in support of it besides the belief of some that it happened verse the reality of China doing this repeatedly. Hmmm…yeah, guess it’s exactly the same!!

Do you have any actually evidence that any other country (besides the US in your CT) operates this way? Evidence that other countries not only steal corporate data and pass it on to their own companies but that have a structure and process in place to do so, and to assist their companies to reverse engineer that data with the intent to drive foreign companies out of business, steal their market share and enrich their own companies in the process? Because, frankly, I can’t think of many examples…even the Russians don’t do this, afaik.

Or, I guess it’s all the same. All relative. Imprisoning people for doing a crime is exactly like imprisoning them for political reasons and harvesting their organs! Censoring kiddie porn is exactly the same as censoring things because they make the state look bad or simply because you don’t think people should know stuff! It’s all exactly the same! No good guys or bad guys…the US government and the CCP are exactly alike! Putin and Obama are no different, really!

Gotcha.

Sure. Has nothing to do with causing 10’s of billions in monetary loss or millions of jobs…it’s really all about us being less extra-big verse not so big. Or, er, something. We aren’t super-sized goodness anymore, so…profit! Everything is the same!

As always, it’s eye opening to see the responses to these subjects here in GD. It’s so ironic that many who complain about the US actions and argue vehemently when folks say ‘well, everyone does it’ to justify US actions do exactly the same thing when it’s China doing stuff…and just handwaving away what China does, no matter how heinous it is (such as the organ harvesting thing which got a resounding meh here in GD when it was brought up).

A day or two after it happened, both the NSA and the Israeli equivalent issued statements that - while not saying anything explicit - sure the hell read like a high five to one another.

I don’t think there’s any real doubt about that one.

Ideally, I’d like us to prove it, block it, publish the proof, and then permanently ban anyone at all even remotely involved from dealing with the United States in any way at all, even as an employee of, or investor in, another company. Then tie trade restrictions for all Chinese companies, as well as for all American companies who use Chinese companies for any and all functions.

The point is, to get the Chinese and American capitalists who are profiting from all this, to directly see that their own self-interests lie in strenuously combating the behavior.

There is always doubt. :wink: Personally, I do think it was the US, but it’s sort of like the Israeli nuclear program…while everyone ‘knows’ they have it, they still having officially acknowledged it nor is there any (unclassified) evidence that they have one or if they do to what extent they do. Same with this…the code certainly has the fingerprints of earlier, US-based cyber-attack code, but then, as we’ve seen, that sort of thing can be stolen or even get out into the wild and be used and morphed by others.

France has been so accused, particularly in the late 1980’s-early 1990’s. Whether they still operate as heavily in such a fashion is open to question ( and of course there was always deniability ). But they are still considered major players in the game of economic espionage. Behind China, but up there with Russia and Israel according to a 2013 NIE. Robert Gates in 2014:

*“In terms of the next capable next to the Chinese are probably the French. And they’ve been doing it a long time,” Gates said. “France has been a mercantilist country. The government and business have operated hand-in-hand since the time of Louis XIV. This is not exactly a new development in France.”

Gates went on to explain that for years now the “French Intelligence Services have been breaking into the hotel rooms of American businessmen and surreptitiously downloading their laptops, if they felt those laptops had technological information, or competitive information that would be useful to French” companies.*

From here.

Gates claimed the U.S. is one of “the few” countries that doesn’t get involved in such shenanigans. But then wikileaks claimed otherwise last year, specifically the U.S. targeting France :D.

(bolding mine)

The USA does exactly that in western countries, so I would assume also in Russia/China. Industrial espionage is a big activity of American intelligence. I’ve heard way more often of the USA spying on French companies than on French officials.

He’s too busy with his hookers and coke.

We’ve lost a surprising number of talented programmers that way.

Or, in the case of the Chinese, two - or more - Wongs.

What, too soon?

So, instead of the U.S.A. it might have been their surrogate Israel. Hmmm.

Cite? Couldn’t the hacking have been done by their surrogate, the Secretariat of CPC Hangzhou Municipal Committee?

Yes, I’m being a bit silly … but your reporting doesn’t seem impartial.

[QUOTE=septimus]
So, instead of the U.S.A. it might have been their surrogate Israel. Hmmm.
[/QUOTE]

:stuck_out_tongue:

So, does that mean you want a cite for this or not? What part of my ‘reporting’ do you find skewed? Are you seriously questioning whether China hacks not just other countries but uses its cyber-warfare group to hack private corporations, steal their IP and then help Chinese companies to reverse engineer and then use that IP for their own gains? Or are you questioning my partiality wrt US use of cyber-warfare verse China’s use (i.e. the argument that seems a recurring theme in these threads that ‘it’s all the same and the US is just as bad’)? I really can’t tell. If you clicked on any of the YouTube videos from China Uncensored I posted in this thread then you’ll see that they actually bother to cite relevant information in their thread…you don’t have to watch the video to get the info. If you just don’t want to click the link I’m sure that 5 seconds of Googling will provide links galore about China’s cyber security antics…and not just from US sources, since this is pretty well known (at ‘water is wet’ level) and wide spread.

Hacking seems to have created a new normal between opposing nations. Technically its an attack, but its an allowed one that we sweep under the rug and don’t want to escalate. They hack us, we hack them, and both parties understand that the hacking won’t (at least for now) rise to actual physical weapons usage. The only thing we can do is hack them back. Maybe we need a MAD doctrine for computer systems; they hack us, we crash their entire electric grid, post uncensored information on their websites, and plant viruses to crash them later until they repent and stop hacking us.

Most of us agree that both the Chinese and U.S. governments engage in cyber espionage. And I, for one, will join you in applauding U.S. efforts while deploring China’s.

My point was simply that the the contrast in your phrasing
“Well, first off there isn’t any proof, afaik …”
“Yet we can say, without a shred of doubt, that the Chinese are doing this.”
was biased obfuscation. Non-objective phrasing detracts from the merits of an argument.

Well, except that, afaik, there ISN’T any proof that the US did the Stuxnet hack (and, of course, that was an Iranian facility run by the Iranian government, which would make it fair game as I already conceded above). There is some evidence, but no smoking gun. It could have been other countries that did it. It almost certainly was a nation state, and certainly it could have been the US, but there isn’t any proof positive.

As for the other, there ISN’T a shred of doubt that the Chinese government has and continue to hack private corporations, stealing their IP and helping Chinese corporations reverse engineer that IP into products that have and continue to compete against the corporations that they stole it from. So, I don’t see it as ‘Non-objective phrasing detracts from the merits of an argument’. Now, you could say, like many in this thread and in similar threads in the past, that there is no real difference between what the US does (spying on foreign governments, foreign nationals, even US corporations and private individuals) is exactly the same as what China is doing (i.e. all of that stuff the US does plus the whole stealing IP stuff)…that’s where I’d disagree. It’s not the same, especially not at the level or the usage of the data the Chinese are doing it. But, to me, that’s the distinction. YMMV.

Here is the Wiki on Stuxnet:

Note that there is some controversy as to who, exactly, did it. Snowden thinks it was a cooperative development between the US and Israel, but if you look at the link it’s him basically speculating…he’s got no actual evidence. There are other countries it could have been. As I said, I BELIEVE it was the US, but I’ve seen no concrete evidence that it was presented at any of the cyber-security conferences or anywhere else, so it’s still a question.

Several days now after the United States has officially accused Russia of multiple cyber attacks aimed at influencing the presidential election and a day after Obama has vowed a proportional response this thread’s subject is perhaps even more cogent, and deserves bumping.

The WSJ take is linked above. Below is a similar summary from the NYT.

Personally I suspect that a response will be delayed until after the election and then will be a graded counter-cyber attack, not economic sanctions that would be hard to get the EU to join in on. They will have HRC being on board with them before they are implemented as she will be dealing with the consequences thereof … which could be a series of escalating attacks and counterattacks that could significantly harm both economies and worse. But lack of a strong response is a green light inviting bolder cyber aggression …

What can be done and what should be done are two different questions.

The u.S. can hack back, but I don’t know if that would be wise. I think we’re confronting the limitations of American power and it makes us uncomfortable and vulnerable. Perhaps more empathy is required.

Generally, anything a country does to us, we can do back. If we’re too scared of even a proportional response than we’re not talking about the limit of American power, we’re talking about being too frightened to act.

Now for China, this is easy: take down their Great Firewall. Russia is a little tougher. I doubt Putin cares if we reveal his financial dealings. There are probably ways to hurt them, such as fouling up their government payroll. I just learned this year how shitty the US is at backing things up. Let’s find out what important data Russia has failed to back up.

For the many reasons I’ve laid out before I’m supporting Clinton, but honestly, her foreign policy increasingly scares me. It’s just more neo-colonial America entering into negotiations and ‘resets’ with the assumption of moral supremacy backed by assumptions of economic and technological superiority. For the first time we’re in an intense conflict with a country that can inflict pain in response to pain, and they can adjust the dial to apply different levels of pressure. We’re repeating the same mistakes with Russia that we made in the late 1950s and early 1960s, escalation of rhetoric and tensions without any real understanding of what Russia’s true concerns area. They get framed by ignorant journalists and incompetent diplomats who insist on seeing Russia through the prism of an American or Western value system.

Here’s the deal, Adaher: We’re threatening the existence of a regime that is in possession of thousands of nuclear warheads. These aren’t just sanctions; these are threats to a regime, and some would interpret this as a threat to Russian sovereignty. We’re playing right into the fears that Russian nationalists – true nationalists – have been warning about for decades, since before the end of the Cold War.

It would be one thing if Russia were invading a recently-liberated Eastern European country just because it decided to have better relations with the West. But there’s more to it than that. The US tried to make NATO stronger and tried to expand it. Moreover, it became active in Eastern European conflicts. Imagine if Russia started involving itself militarily in Central America – we probably would be sounding all kinds of alarm bells. We then proposed American troops in Eastern Europe (New Europe) and missile defense systems. We invaded Iraq and continue to occupy the country. After chiding Russia for invading Afghanistan and helping to oust them, we invaded said country and remain there 15 years later. I could actually go on.

Russia has felt threatened and disrespected ever since the end of the Cold War. We ignore these concerns because we arrogantly assumed we had the leverage. Turns out, Russia has leverage of its own. America is increasingly slipping into a multi-polar world, which makes attempting to use ever-weakening alliances to manipulate other world powers a tactically dumb move. We can stamp our feet and insist we’re right but the Putins of the world are going to keep pushing back

Which brings me to another point: Russia will not back down. They will only escalate. The Russians are not reckless but they’re not going to tolerate being cornered and manipulated by Western power. They are prepared to escalate a lot more than we are. This is a culture that emerged from the ruins of the Mongol hordes. This is a country that has dealt with and endured extreme hardship against ruthless invaders, and ultimately expelled them. The U.S. is, in their view, just another Mongol horde, just another Third Reich. The people will sacrifice. They will endure. They will forgive Putin far less if he folds. Now if you and the rest of us think Hillary Clinton ought to raise the stakes when in reality we might be able to do real negotiations and find a pragmatic outcome, we’d probably best reconsider that notion.

Then you’d better hope that the Democratic Party isn’t taking this personally, because their language suggests that they are.

They’ll get over it.

I think there’s actually an opportunity for Clinton in the same way there was an opportunity for Reagan. Talk trash in front of the cameras but find common ground behind the scenes. The art of the deal (god I feel nauseated using that phrase) is in finding a way for both sides to avoid losing face. I am not a Russia - East Europe expert but I’m wondering if we might be able to propose the following:

  • Get Russia to end most damaging hacking in exchange for bilateral talks on a range of issues.

  • Let Assad have Syria: Obama’s red line was basically an attempt to talk like a tough guy but everyone saw right through it. Never should have used that line. Everyone knew that the anti-war president wasn’t prepared to back it up.

  • Concentrate on stabilizing Iraq to the extent possible

  • Get Russian help on ISIS

  • Rework NATO to include more Russian influence

  • Scrap missile defense.

  • Strengthen EU - Russian partnerships and economic cooperation so that Russia feels less threatened by the departure of former states.