# Russian military's use of Lignostone **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762 "2004-09-23T21:50:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/121 "2016-02-03T04:33:24Z")
As far as I know, the first person to make the Magog in Genesis the ancestor of the Scythians is Josephus. I’ve heard some speculation that the Gog in Ezekiel is Gyges of Lydia, but I don’t know that the dates really line up. ---
**Author:** ![Ageranger361](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ageranger361](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ageranger361)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/122 "2016-02-03T05:10:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > meh > His logic is flawed. > It is more likely that a newly created work would have more copies as it would be perceived as a “popular” work to be passed around while those books considered Scripture would tend to be limited to special scrolls maintained in religious houses. > > Regardless of that argument, it remains true that there is no extra-scriptural work prior to 200 hundred B.C.E. that quotes any portion of Daniel. There is no list of books prior to 200 that mentions Daniel. Daniel uses words, particularly Persian words, that would not have been known at the time of the Babylonian Captivity which preceded the Persian overthrow of Babylon and further employs Greek words that were not even coined at the time of the Babylonian Captivity. (It would be similar to finding a 16th century manuscript in Russian referring to a Moog Synthesizer or referring to a guitar with the English word “axe.”) > > Your scholar is reaching (and omitting actual information) in order to defend a long-discredited belief. I think this author sufficiently addresses all the typical arguments for an early Danielic writing which you seem to be arguing one of, so I won’t bother recreating the wheel here. Here’s a link: [http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/ot-difficulties/daniel-amos/authorship-of-daniel/](http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/ot-difficulties/daniel-amos/authorship-of-daniel/) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/123 "2016-02-03T05:51:32Z")
> [@Ageranger361](#): > > What I’ve done is ask for information that proves or disproves that Russia IS or IS NOT using lignostone in their hardware and whether lignostone would actually even be usable as military hardware. It’s called investigating the claim. Why do you hate research? What I’ve done is ask for proof that you do not sexually abuse animals. It’s called investigating the claim. Why do you hate research? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/124 "2016-02-03T08:34:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It is not accurate that the association of Magog with Scythia is “fringe.” Yes, you are right, I couldn’t come up with a more appropriate word. > [@Ageranger361](#): > > …snip… > It is provocative that even the name “Caucasus” appears to have been derived from Gog-hasan, or "Gog’s Fort."23 All you are doing is saying “Look Scythians!!!” The only link with Magog you give here is this very dubious etymology from **1748**. Linguistic studies have advanced quite a bit since the 1700’s. Here is the modern entry from the online etymology dictionary: > [@](#): > > Caucasus (n.) > mountain range between Europe and the Middle East, from Latin Caucasus, from Greek kaukasis, said by Pliny (“Natural History,” book six, chap. XVII) to be from a Scythian word similar to kroy-khasis, literally “(the mountain) ice-shining, white with snow.” But possibly from a Pelasgian root \*kau- meaning “mountain.” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/125 "2016-02-03T09:19:33Z")
You guys can sneer, but when the Russians start genetically engineering a leopard with seven heads and ten horns, you’ll be crawling back to church while wailing and teeth-gnashing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/126 "2016-02-03T14:26:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You guys can sneer, but when the Russians start genetically engineering a leopard with seven heads and ten horns, you’ll be crawling back to church while wailing and teeth-gnashing. Given that they’re Russians, they forget to install the teeth and the horns wil play “Dueschland Uber Alles…” ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/127 "2016-02-03T15:12:12Z")
Excuse me, where can I hide my “Hi! My Name Is _digs – Biblical Scholar_” nametag? It’s making me feel dirty… eta: As an “Assistant (to the) Minister”, I firmly believe God is cracking up at us taking all this poetic/prophetic/metaphoric stuff seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Ageranger361](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ageranger361](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ageranger361)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/128 "2016-02-03T16:32:01Z")
I think you need to check your Hermeneutics scale. It sounds like it is askew… ---
**Author:** ![Ageranger361](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ageranger361](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ageranger361)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/129 "2016-02-03T16:56:53Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Yes, you are right, I couldn’t come up with a more appropriate word. > > All you are doing is saying “Look Scythians!!!” > The only link with Magog you give here is this very dubious etymology from **1748**. > > Linguistic studies have advanced quite a bit since the 1700’s. Here is the modern entry from the online etymology dictionary: **Yet again** you’ve posted a rebuttal to a source cited by someone else, but have not presented any factual evidence to support your own case for an alternative locale or to support your assertion that the derivation of the word is incorrect. Can you present a citation for your source and your reasoning for ignoring the proper use of the word as an adjective? Let me give you the proper definition of the etymology of the adjective word Caucuses which you seem to have intentionally ignored: Caucasian (adj.) 1807, from Caucasus Mountains, _ **between the Black and Caspian seas** _; applied to the “white” race 1795 (in German) by German anthropologist Johann Blumenbach, because its supposed ancestral homeland lay there; since abandoned as a historical/anthropological term. (See Aryan). And it’s source link is here: > **[caucasus | Search Online Etymology Dictionary](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=Caucasus)** > > The online etymology dictionary (etymonline) is the internet's go-to source for quick and reliable accounts of the origin and history of English words, phrases, and idioms. It is professional enough to satisfy academic standards, but accessible... Here’s a link to a map showing the area between the Black and Caspian Sea, north of the “Caucusus” mountain ranges. Funny, it’s in modern day southern Russia… [![](http://www.generationaldynamics.com/ww2010/caucas5.gif) ](http://www.generationaldynamics.com/ww2010/caucas5.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Ageranger361](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ageranger361](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ageranger361)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/130 "2016-02-03T17:24:50Z")
The Septuagint (LXX) version translated the Old Testament from it’s Original Hebrew (“Vorlage”) was undertaken - In the days of Ezra and Nehemia -285-270 BC, 72 scholars at Alexandria (Three Centuries Prior to The Gospel Period) - Primary quoted text in the New Testament [Antiochus IV Epiphanes (ca. 215–164 BCE)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees), Daniel was part of that original OT translation into the LXX and therefore MUST predate the Maccabean era. The Jews at this time (three centuries prior) accepted the OT, which included Daniel, as Canonical. For any practicing Jew who does not accept Daniel as written when it claims to be this presents a serious problem. _ **No other book is as validated by history than Daniel** _ 332 BC: Alexanders conquest of Jerusalem: The Priest Jaddua showed him references to himself in Daniel; because of this the city was spared. This is recorded by Josephus R. Kodeway, 1899-1917, excavations of Nebuchadnezzar’s palace, et al, Banquet hall found, 173’ X 56’, prominently referred to and described by Daniel in the famous “handwriting on the wall” account contains various explicit details that have been used to criticize Daniels account of history have since proven his accounts of history as accurate and require that Daniel be present as an eye witness in that era to have known about them. Jesus quotes Daniel 3X and refers to him as Daniel the Prophet. For anyone claiming to be Christian and believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, this should completely nail shut the argument that Daniel was not written when it claims to have been. It makes Christ a liar to do so. For some of you that is no problem, but to Christians, esp. those in this forum, It presents a serious problem. NEXT… ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/131 "2016-02-03T17:40:54Z")
> [@Ageranger361](#): > > **Yet again** you’ve posted a rebuttal to a source cited by someone else, but have not presented any factual evidence to support your own case for an alternative locale or to support your assertion that the derivation of the word is incorrect. Can you present a citation for your source and your reasoning for ignoring the proper use of the word as an adjective? > > Let me give you the proper definition of the etymology of the adjective word Caucuses which you seem to have intentionally ignored: > > Caucasian (adj.) > 1807, from Caucasus Mountains, _ **between the Black and Caspian seas** _; applied to the “white” race 1795 (in German) by German anthropologist Johann Blumenbach, because its supposed ancestral homeland lay there; since abandoned as a historical/anthropological term. (See Aryan). > > And it’s source link is here: > [caucasus | Search Online Etymology Dictionary](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=Caucasus) > Here’s a link to a map showing the area between the Black and Caspian Sea, north of the “Caucusus” mountain ranges. Funny, it’s in modern day southern Russia… > > [http://www.generationaldynamics.com/ww2010/caucas5.gif](http://www.generationaldynamics.com/ww2010/caucas5.gif) Yet again, your post is nothing else than “Look Caucasus!!” Without anything linking it to Magog. You even linked to the same sourse I quoted, that shows it has nothing to do with “Gog’s fort”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/132 "2016-02-03T17:49:28Z")
Even assuming _Daniel_ was written when Ageranger361 claims it was written, its value as prophecy is tenuous at best. What is considered the gold standard example of biblical prophesy, in terms of accuracy, clarity and independent verifiability? ---
**Author:** ![Ageranger361](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ageranger361](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ageranger361)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/133 "2016-02-03T17:58:30Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Yet again, your post is nothing else than “Look Caucasus!!” > Without anything linking it to Magog. > > You even linked to the same sourse I quoted, that shows it has nothing to do with “Gog’s fort”. The Scythians We know the descendants of Magog by their Greek designation as the Scythians (depicted in their legends as descending from Scythes , the youngest of the three sons of Heracles, from sleeping with a half viper and half woman). 18 The name Scythian designates a number of nomadic tribes from the Russian steppes, one group of which invaded the Near East in the 8th and 7th centuries B.C. After being repulsed from Media, many of the later Scyths settled in the fertile area of the Ukraine north of the Black Sea. Other related tribes occupied the area to the east of the Caspian Sea. Herodotus describes them living in Scythia (i.e., the territory north of the Black Sea). He describes Scythia as a square, 20 days journey (360 miles) on a side. It encompassed the lower reaches of the Dniester, Bug, Dnieper, and Don Rivers where they flow into the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. 19 The Scythian language belonged to the Iranian family of the Indo-European languages.20 The Ossetian dialect of central Caucasus appears to be a survivor.21 The original area in which Iranian was spoken extended from the mid-Volga and the Don regions to the northern Urals and beyond. From here, Iranian-speaking tribes colonized Media, Parthia, Persia, Central Asia, and as far as the Chinese border. In the 7th century B.C. the Scythians swept across the area, displacing the Cimmerians from the steppes of the Ukraine east of Dnieper River, who fled from them across the Caucasus.22 It is provocative that even the name “Caucasus” appears to have been derived from Gog-hasan, or "Gog’s Fort."23 The hippomolgoi (“mare-milkers”) mentioned in Homer’s Iliad 24 were equestrian nomads of the northern steppes and several authorities also identified these with the Scythians. 25 [One of the delicacies I was presented with when I was being hosted by the Deputy Chairman of the Soviet Union was fermented horse milk! These traditions may have a deep history, indeed.] 1. It is interesting to notice how frequently a woman is linked with a serpent: Genesis 3; the legends surrounding the birth of Alexander the Great, etc. 2. B.A. Rybakov (Rus: Herodotus’s Scythia ), Nauka, Moscow, 1979, p. 19. 3. See R. G. Kent, Old Persian, 2nd ed., American Oriental Society, New Haven CT, 1953, p. 6; J. Potratz, Die Skythen in Sudrussland , Raggi, Basel, 1963, p.17. 4. See “Scythian”(Rus: Great Soviet Encylopedia ), 3rd ed., 1979, vol 23, pp.259-260. Also, Herodotus 4.117, 4.108, 4.106. 5. Herodotus 4.12. 6. Dr. John Gill, A Commentary on the Old Testament, 1748. 7. Iliad, 13.5. 8. B.N. Grakov, Die Skythen , Deutscher Verlag der Wissenschaften, Berlin, 1980, p.4. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/134 "2016-02-03T18:04:24Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > What I’ve done is ask for proof that you do not sexually abuse animals. It’s called investigating the claim. Why do you hate research? While I get where you’re coming from - the impossibility of proving a negative - I’d really prefer a less…graphic…means of illustrating the point. No warning, not even guidance. Just a sort of best-practices comment. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/135 "2016-02-03T18:11:40Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > What I’ve done is ask for proof that you do not sexually abuse animals. It’s called investigating the claim. Why do you hate research? Throwing out the first question to grab attention, while a bit crude, is acceptable. Pursuing the question moves into the realm of harassment. You got his attention. You did not get the response you wanted. Drop it. [/Moderating] ETA: That will teach me to get up and let the muddy dog in before hitting “Submit.” ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/136 "2016-02-03T18:12:41Z")
> [@Ageranger361](#): > > Do you read? Apparently you don’t. You seem a bit confused. You are supposed to show that Magog are the Scythians. That was your claim, right? Magog = Russia. You are not doing that. The only evidence you presented is an amateur etymology of the name Caucasus from 1748. You are just saying there were Scythians and there is a mountain range called Caucasus. Nobody is disputing that part. ---
**Author:** ![Ageranger361](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ageranger361](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ageranger361)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/137 "2016-02-03T18:17:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Even assuming _Daniel_ was written when Ageranger361 claims it was written, its value as prophecy is tenuous at best. > > What is considered the gold standard example of biblical prophesy, in terms of accuracy, clarity and independent verifiability? [Daniel 9:24-27 Daniel predicts that the Messiah would be killed in AD 33—over 500 years in advance.](http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/jesus-and-messianic-prophecy/) [Daniel Roughly 600 B.C.: The rest of the land (Judah) was taken over by Babylonia, as Jeremiah predicted. This was the remaining land to the south. All of the Jews were exiled.](http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/) [Alexander the Great took over the Jews. This was predicted in the book of Daniel (Dan. 8), but it isn’t historically recorded in the Old Testament. This occurred during the intertestamental period (the time between the Old and New Testament).](http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/) [Destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.](http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/prophecy/AD70/Dan9.html) also verified by Jesus in Matthew 24. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/138 "2016-02-03T18:25:01Z")
> [@Ageranger361](#): > > [Daniel 9:24-27 Daniel predicts that the Messiah would be killed in AD 33—over 500 years in advance.](http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/jesus-and-messianic-prophecy/) > > [Daniel Roughly 600 B.C.: > The rest of the land (Judah) was taken over by Babylonia, as Jeremiah predicted. This was the remaining land to the south. All of the Jews were exiled.](http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/) > > [Alexander the Great took over the Jews. This was predicted in the book of Daniel (Dan. 8), but it isn’t historically recorded in the Old Testament. This occurred during the intertestamental period (the time between the Old and New Testament).](http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/) > > [Destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.](http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/prophecy/AD70/Dan9.html) > also verified by Jesus in Matthew 24. I’ll look these over when I’m at my home computer later, but at a glance, don’t a few of them rely on the assumption that Jesus was the Messiah? That seems a pretty bold assumption to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ageranger361](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ageranger361](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ageranger361)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/139 "2016-02-03T18:30:45Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Apparently you don’t. > You seem a bit confused. You are supposed to show that Magog are the Scythians. > That was your claim, right? Magog = Russia. > > You are not doing that. > The only evidence you presented is an amateur etymology of the name Caucasus from 1748. > > You are just saying there were Scythians and there is a mountain range called Caucasus. > Nobody is disputing that part. Greek Designation of Magog as Scythians: “We know the descendants of Magog by their Greek designation as the Scythians (depicted in their legends as descending from Scythes , the youngest of the three sons of Heracles, from sleeping with a half viper and half woman). 18” **Direct Assignment by Hesiod:** Hesiod, ‘‘the father of Greek didactic poetry,’’ identified Magog with the Scythians and southern Russia in the 7th century B.C. (Hesiods writings precede the Book of Ezekiel.) Direct Assignment by the Greeks through Herodotus: Herodotus of Harlicarnassus, known as the ‘‘Father of History,’’ wrote extensively about the descendants of Magog by their Greek name, the Scythians, in the 5th century B.C. _ **Flavius Josephus records that Magogians were called ‘‘Scythians’’ by the Greeks. Philo, in the 1st century, identifies Magog with southern Russia.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Ageranger361](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Ageranger361](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ageranger361)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762/140 "2016-02-03T18:40:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ll look these over when I’m at my home computer later, but at a glance, don’t a few of them rely on the assumption that Jesus was the Messiah? That seems a pretty bold assumption to me. Yes, but those are cited theologically to those on this forum whom identify themselves as either believers of “Jewish,” or “Christian,” faiths. This was included to show the presence of a problem for them in their own theological beliefs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-militarys-use-of-lignostone/265762.md?page=8)