# Russian olympians are teh eeeeevil!!!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 9, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136 "2015-11-09T20:36:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/1 "2015-11-09T20:36:47Z")
[Story here.](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/09/ioc-ethics-panel-recommends-suspension-honorary-member-lamine-diack-amid/?intcmp=hplnws) The World Anti-Doping Agency is saying that Russia cheated in the 2012 Olympics, that it was state-sponsored, the [del]Soviets[/del] oops, Russians should be banned from ever competing again, etc. etc. After reading this, a few thoughts sprung immediately to mind. 1. Given recent events in global politics, surely I’m not the only person who finds the timing of this report a bit suspicious? Have we started the Cold War, Part II? 2. Why did it take World Anti-Doping Agency 3 years to come to this conclusion? Italian murder trials take place in less time than that. 3. The World Anti-Doping Agency is run by the International Olympic Committee. When it comes to corruption, those guys are right up there with the United Nations, and I wouldn’t trust them to give me the correct time of day. 4. The sanctions being advocated seem rather harsh (“Kick the Russians out of the 2016 Olympics !!!”) I suppose we’ve forgotten about the cheating scandals that have occurred after pretty much every Olympics in modern times. Have I forgetten about when we banned France from the Olympics after that judging scandal? Or banned China from gymnastics for sending girls that were almost certainly well under the minimum age (16 years old)? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/2 "2015-11-09T21:07:45Z")
Eastern Europeans teams doping? Imagine [my](http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1017585/russian-doping-problems-continue-as-weightlifters-and-cyclists-banned-for-failed-tests) [surprise](http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/11/uk-athletics-doping-iaaf-idUKKCN0QG1L520150811). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/3 "2015-11-09T21:19:42Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > [Story here.](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/09/ioc-ethics-panel-recommends-suspension-honorary-member-lamine-diack-amid/?intcmp=hplnws) The World Anti-Doping Agency is saying that Russia cheated in the 2012 Olympics, that it was state-sponsored, the [del]Soviets[/del] oops, Russians should be banned from ever competing again, etc. etc. That article is rather scant on details. > [@](#): > > The commission also accused the Russian state of complicity. It said its months-long probe found no written evidence of government involvement, but it added: “It would be naive in the extreme to conclude that activities on the scale discovered could have occurred without the explicit or tacit approval of Russian governmental authorities.” What were the “activities on the scale discovered”, or is that old news already? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/4 "2015-11-09T21:37:57Z")
Details? You want details? [We got details.](https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2509916/world-anti-doping-agency-report-on-russian.pdf) Well mostly. That report specifies that much of the evidence has been turned over to Interpol and that they > [@THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION REPORT #1](#): > > will not make public the contents of that chapter of the Report, so as not to interfere with the ongoing investigations regarding such conduct. It is, however, anticipated that the chapter will be released and it is hoped that this can be done before the end of the year, for purposes of appropriate civil follow-up and actions. Still section 1.7.2 summarizes many specific findings that are detailed in the report. More than I care to read though! But have fun … ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/5 "2015-11-09T22:50:04Z")
Dick Pound, one of the authors of that report, was interviewed on radio this morning. He has always seemed like a straightforward sort to me, if a bit over the top on the use of performance-enhancing drugs. I don’t think this is cold war reprise, although some countries may use it that way. But it was the collusion of the Russian government and the Russian testing agency that got up Pound’s nose. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/6 "2015-11-09T22:54:26Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > After reading this, a few thoughts sprung immediately to mind. One thought that apparently never entered your mind is the possibility that the Russians may have actually broken the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/7 "2015-11-10T00:35:10Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > But it was the collusion of the Russian government and the Russian testing agency that got up Pound’s nose. Mind providing a cité for that baseless accusation of yours? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/8 "2015-11-10T00:50:17Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Mind providing a cité for that baseless accusation of yours? Um even a cursory skim of the report, already linked to, demonstrates that the collusion is the focus of the report. Not sure if that went up his nose or was felt more as a bug up his ass, but it is the focus and the main charge. Perhaps you should look at the report _before_ saying it is baseless? (It may be … I am no expert and am unlikely to read that whole thing.) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/9 "2015-11-10T00:51:01Z")
I’m just going to go on record here and state how much I like the name _Dick Pound_: A lot. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/10 "2015-11-10T07:38:59Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > 1. Why did it take World Anti-Doping Agency 3 years to come to this conclusion? Italian murder trials take place in less time than that. It didn’t. Everyone knew. But everyone also knew it was pointless publishing under the previous President. Seb Coe took over 2-3 months ago. Now is the right time. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/11 "2015-11-10T07:43:57Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > 1. The sanctions being advocated seem rather harsh (“Kick the Russians out of the 2016 Olympics !!!”) I suppose we’ve forgotten about the cheating scandals that have occurred after pretty much every Olympics in modern times. Have I forgetten about when we banned France from the Olympics after that judging scandal? Or banned China from gymnastics for sending girls that were almost certainly well under the minimum age (16 years old)? I hate it when innocent athletes get caught up in sanctions every bit as much as I hate athletes who deserve recognition and medals don’t get them because of cheats. For a national sanction to be an acceptable remedy you surely have to show it was systemic and state approved, even if to the extent of a ‘blind eye’ policy ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/12 "2015-11-10T10:14:39Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > For a national sanction to be an acceptable remedy you surely have to show it was systemic and state approved, even if to the extent of a ‘blind eye’ policy Seriously, read the report. That is exactly the point. [The report is here](https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CC8QFjAEahUKEwjh1IHxyIXJAhUBRg8KHd6qCVU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fresources%2Ffiles%2Fwada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf&usg=AFQjCNECXOysHcUydYMrDufUiS-2VnnCAQ&sig2=Duuef7wuT1Z6nSTFHGZcwQ&bvm=bv.106923889,d.ZWU). If you don’t want to read anything else then at least go to section 1.7 (on page 22 of the pdf, page 12 of the main report), these are the findings and they cover 21 pages in total. There is plenty there to get your teeth into. The largest number of findings (51!) are to do with the ARAF, The All-Russian Atheltics Federation. i.e. the national organisation responsible for all athletes. As for “systemic”? I refer you to finding 25 of that section (pg 22 fo the report) > [@](#): > > Within the scope of this investigation, there is clear evidence of a > “Systemic Culture of Doping in Russian Sport” perpetuated, in part, although > not exclusively, through coaches and administrators, whose collective actions at > times extended beyond mere administrative violations into potentially criminal > acts. Note “Russian Sport” not just athletics. They didn’t choose that phrasing by accident. They do state elsewhere in the report that other sports in Russia are outside their remit but that it is likely to be effected as well. Interesting nugget of info. Number of athletic medals won by Russia in recent major championships 19…WC’s 2003 19…olympics 2004 18…WC’s 2005 14…WC’s 2007 18…olympics 2008 13…WC’s 2009 19…WC’s 2011 17…olympics 2012 17…WC’s 2013 **4** …WC’s 2015 (after the WADA investigation started, gosh, it is almost like they knew they’d been rumbled and would be under greater scrutiny) If the sanction banning a whole country exists, and it is not used in this case then you have to ask when would it be? Personally I think this is a great day, you have a slam-dunk case for setting an example with a obviously guilty party and to set a fire under those who have something to hide. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/13 "2015-11-10T10:25:12Z")
I don’t particularly doubt it, was stating a personal pref for a test - something better than ‘my Gov boycotts the next Olympic Games’. No idea if an entire Federation has been banned before … ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/14 "2015-11-10T13:38:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > One thought that apparently never entered your mind is the possibility that the Russians may have actually broken the rules. The thought entered my mind. But given the timing of the report, it would be naiive not to consider the possibility of an ulterior motive. Recently, Russia has embarassed the Western leaders by annexing Crimea (apparently getting away with it), and then stepping into Syria and bombing the “moderate” rebels (that just happen to have US backing) to take pressure off the Assad regeim. Perhaps Dick Pound is on the up-and-up, but if so he had the misfortune of releasing the report at the worst possible time, because bringing this up _now_ looks like the kind of passive-agressive sniping I remember from the bad old days of the Cold War. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/15 "2015-11-10T14:14:53Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The thought entered my mind. But given the timing of the report, it would be naiive not to consider the possibility of an ulterior motive. Recently, Russia has embarassed the Western leaders by annexing Crimea (apparently getting away with it), and then stepping into Syria and bombing the “moderate” rebels (that just happen to have US backing) to take pressure off the Assad regeim. Perhaps Dick Pound is on the up-and-up, but if so he had the misfortune of releasing the report at the worst possible time, because bringing this up _now_ looks like the kind of passive-agressive sniping I remember from the bad old days of the Cold War. utter, utter nonsense. Absolute hogwash. This was sparked off by journalists in Germany, putting together their expose which was so damming that a WADA investigation was started. The journalists have an investigative trail going back some way. WADA started their investigations a year ago. They have uncontrovertible documentary and interview evidence from Russian officials and athletes themselves. What is more likely? that all the above co-ordinated their investigations and fabricated their evidence to allow for a pre-determined outcome that must conform to the wishes of states and persons unspecified for reasons unknown? …or that Russia, a country with a history of state-sponsored doping, has been caught carrying out state-sponsored doping? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/16 "2015-11-10T14:55:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > One thought that apparently never entered your mind is the possibility that the Russians may have actually broken the rules. Oh the absolutely did. But they are not the only ones. Look at the FIFA scandal, there was lots of talk about the need to remove the WC from Qatar and Russia because it was obtained with bribes, lot less talk now that Germany has also been implicated. [QUOTE=up\_the\_junction] Seb Coe took over 2-3 months ago. Now is the right time. [/QUOTE] While we are at it, Coe is a British politician, of course we can expect finidngs against Russians to be released now. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/17 "2015-11-10T15:33:48Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Oh the absolutely did. But they are not the only ones. Which other athletics federation has been shown to have carried out corruption on this scale? > [@](#): > > Look at the FIFA scandal, there was lots of talk about the need to remove the WC from Qatar and Russia because it was obtained with bribes, lot less talk now that Germany has also been implicated. Quantify “lots” and “less”. The FIFA car-crash continues apace. Plenty of corruption to go round and lots of legal cases being kicked off in Germany as we speak. > [@](#): > > While we are at it, Coe is a British politician, of course we can expect finidngs against Russians to be released now. What? not you as well AK84. Coe is not a representative of the government. Also, the date for the publishing of the report was set by WADA some time ago. Are you seriously suggesting that this is some kind of conspiracy against Russia? Have you actually read the report? Sometimes a bunch of cheating scum that got caught is just a bunch of cheating scum that got caught. I hope they are kicked off the international stage until they can prove the independence, tracability and transparency of their system. Then broaden the investigation into whichever countries give cause for concern. Audit and investigate them all. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/18 "2015-11-10T15:48:57Z")
1. It would wrong to decide to pursue based on political circumstances and it would be as wrong to dsecide to not sanction because of Russia’s current political stances. 2. If there is evidence of systemic abuse at this scale by other countries then those countries should also be sqanctioned. There isn’t any? Oh. 3. Again, I am not in position to evaluate the quality of the case. I would state that such a sanction requires a very high standard of proof. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/19 "2015-11-10T16:01:33Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The thought entered my mind. But given the timing of the report, it would be naiive not to consider the possibility of an ulterior motive. Recently, Russia has embarassed the Western leaders by annexing Crimea (apparently getting away with it), and then stepping into Syria and bombing the “moderate” rebels (that just happen to have US backing) to take pressure off the Assad regeim. Perhaps Dick Pound is on the up-and-up, but if so he had the misfortune of releasing the report at the worst possible time, because bringing this up _now_ looks like the kind of passive-agressive sniping I remember from the bad old days of the Cold War. If I read about how John Smith was accused of having a bunch of unpaid parking tickets and your response was “Well, they’re only accusing him of having unpaid parking tickets because he mugged five people last month and robbed a bank in July” then I’d think that finding out Smith mugs people and robs banks doesn’t make me less inclined to believe he also doesn’t pay his parking tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136/20 "2015-11-10T16:42:25Z")
This comes as no surprise to anyone who has watched Rocky IV. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-olympians-are-teh-eeeeevil/737136.md?page=2)