# "Russian World" may be taking a hit in the hinterland **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 1, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178 "2023-02-01T21:52:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/41 "2023-02-16T21:29:46Z")
In contrast with the later, more nebulous promises of no further NATO expansion. Russia mantains that this was a literal promise, broken by the US. It is their supposed justification for their own treaty violations. Now, I am discussing stated policy here, not conspiracies or my personal opinion… Nobody had any doubt that the US was a supporter of the disintegration of the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/42 "2023-02-16T21:40:26Z")
Putin is a ruthless person when he needs to be, and cultivates his public image well. He has positioned himself as an arbiter amongst all the Russian factions, and somebody who will also enforce his will if arbitration fails. He also seems to actually have majority support in the electorate. He is populist, really. A stone faced Russian populist rather than a bombastic American one, but a populist nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/43 "2023-02-16T21:45:16Z")
The last year has revealed that Putin is a fool who believes his yes-men and has little understanding of the real world outside his bubble, and especially of the Western world. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/44 "2023-02-16T21:49:30Z")
> [@WellHelloThere](#): > > The liberal democrat Yeltsin was an object of ridicule. So now we have the rabid nationalists exerting influence; their policy is “make Russia great again”. Except Yeltsin wasn’t a liberal democrat. He was a corrupt kleptocrat. Which is why I think Russia would have been better off with Gorbachev. From what I know of him, he was the Russian version of Jimmy Carter, and just like with Carter, the Russian people decided that they would rather have someone who pretended he was acting for the good of the people than someone who actually did so, despite the temporary pain it was causing. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/45 "2023-02-16T21:53:28Z")
He (Yeltsin) supported a liberal, democratic form of government. Multi party elections. He did not attempt to change the law to place himself in charge indefinitely. I do not want to hijack too far, but it seems fair to say he was a liberal democrat. Now you can say he sucked at his job, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/46 "2023-02-16T22:36:40Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > First, I want to thank you for absolutely ruining half my work day. It’s nice to be the boss, but I really should have done more with my day. Sorry, and not sorry. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/47 "2023-02-17T09:37:04Z")
> [@WellHelloThere](#): > > He (Yeltsin) supported a liberal, democratic form of government. Multi party elections. Gorbachev introduced multi party elections as part of perestroika and glasnost. The first ever free election in Russian history was in March 1989. I know, as I was there and I still have some of the flyers from some of the candidates. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/48 "2023-02-17T21:40:42Z")
I was not aware of that, and thank you for educating me. I was talking about Putin though, in contrast with Yeltsin. Strictly Russian Federation, post USSR. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/49 "2023-02-21T19:01:39Z")
This hour-long documentary was on TV here yesterday: deeply depressing. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egkmcG07E-s) [BBC Four - Storyville, Inside Russia: Traitors and Heroes](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001jdxk) by ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/50 "2023-02-22T00:45:59Z")
> [@WellHelloThere](#): > > Russia applied to join NATO, it was denied. Cite please? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/51 "2023-02-22T02:45:01Z")
> **[Russia could have joined NATO. But why didn't they do it?](https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561)** > > The victorious Western alliance saw Russia as a crumbled post-Soviet state and did not make enough efforts to let Moscow join the power bloc. > But at one point in history, Putin’s Russia wanted to join NATO. > > “Russia is part of European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world. So it is hard for me to visualise NATO as an enemy,” [said Putin,](http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/24194) the country’s acting president in 2000, three weeks before the election, which made him president… > > [A]ccording to the then-NATO chief George Robertson, [Putin bluntly asked:](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule) “When are you going to invite us to join Nato?” Robertson advised the Russian president that he needs to “apply to join NATO” and not expect an invitation. > **[NATO–Russia relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO%E2%80%93Russia_relations)** > > Relations between the NATO military alliance and the Russian Federation were established in 1991 within the framework of the North Atlantic Cooperation Council. In 1994, Russia joined the Partnership for Peace program, and on 27 May 1997, the NATO–Russia Founding Act (NRFA) was signed at the 1997 Paris NATO Summit in France, enabling the creation of the NATO–Russia Permanent Joint Council (NRPJC). Through the early part of 2010s NATO and Russia signed several additional agreements on cooperati... > [Mikhail Gorbachev](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev) said that “You say that NATO is not directed against us, that it is simply a security structure that is adapting to new realities … therefore, we propose to join NATO.” However, Baker dismissed the possibility as a “dream”.[[192]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO%E2%80%93Russia_relations#cite_note-192) In 1991, as the Soviet Union was dissolved, Russian president Boris Yeltsin sent a letter to NATO, suggesting that Russia’s long-term aim was to join NATO. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/52 "2023-02-22T20:30:13Z")
It appears they never quite got to the point of formally applying, my mistake. Moves were made by Russian leaders in that direction though. And these moves were not warmly received by NATO. Thank you Johnny L.A. for your cites, I make a mess of links when attempting it from my phone. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/53 "2023-02-22T23:03:40Z")
If they said they wanted to join NATO, but never actually applied, then they were just plain lying when they said they wanted to join. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/54 "2023-02-22T23:18:19Z")
Maybe they decided that they didn’t want to join any club that would have them as a member. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/55 "2023-02-23T00:09:22Z")
Wrong Marx. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/56 "2023-02-23T00:29:05Z")
Is the argument “Russia indicated that maybe they were interested in joining NATO, but then the other countries did not rejoice enough at this, so they didn’t , and therefore they get to invade Ukraine and kill people”??? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/57 "2023-02-23T00:51:49Z")
That does appear to be the line of thinking, generally. No, I don’t think it really makes sense when you phrase it differently, either. ---
**Author:** ![Ssounder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@Ssounder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ssounder)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/58 "2023-02-23T01:23:13Z")
Imo it was a mistake to allow Russia on as a permanent member of the UN Security Counsel. -Complete with veto power. _Critics say that the veto is the most undemocratic element of the UN,([United Nations Security Council veto power - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_veto_power#cite_note-wilcox1945-5)) as well as the main cause of inaction on war crimes and crimes against humanity, as it effectively prevents UN action against the permanent members and their allies._ Note: some links removed^. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/59 "2023-02-23T01:47:51Z")
Nobody has made that argument anywhere. Mr. “I am a blind supporter of the war and I don’t want to hear anything else.” ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/60 "2023-02-23T01:50:27Z")
That might be true, but it was also an impossible problem to solve. Russia had the nukes, and the capital city, and most of the military forces. How else could the problem have been solved? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178.md?page=4)