# "Russian World" may be taking a hit in the hinterland **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 1, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178 "2023-02-01T21:52:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/101 "2023-02-23T21:37:12Z")
My entire purpose in these threads is to provide some historical context that might make people understand why Russia is behaving this way, as crazy as it is. And we havent even discussed their terrible demographics. There is a real scarcity of posts with regard to why, and US media certainly isnt helping. I actually believe NATO is a good idea, but there is no balance here. Russia is headed for a demographic collapse; they are grasping at anything while they still can. This is nationalism, from a nation in decay ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/102 "2023-02-23T21:55:11Z")
If that is your aim I must recommend “[The Story of Russia](https://www.amazon.de/s?k=the+story+of+russia+by+orlando+figes&crid=34XL1HQH0FW6B&sprefix=the+story+of+russ%2Caps%2C106&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_2_17)”, by Orlando Figues. It is not just the demographic collapse, I am afraid. The country was always like that. The demographic collapse does not help, of course, but how a war that is killing young men in droves is going to improve the situation is beyond me. Right now it is a very sick society. Fascism is making matters worse, as it turns most citizens into cowards that only want to keep their heads down. And because it bears repeating: Putin must be defeated. That is not the solution to Russia’s problems, that will have to come later. But it is a necessary first step. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/103 "2023-02-23T22:18:46Z")
Who would come after Putin? Navelny, maybe. Or Dmitry Utkin, or somebody else entirely. Anything could happen, some options might be even more fascist than the current government. I honestly don’t know. The US has a bad track record with this but is going full speed ahead anyway. ETA Julia Ioffre is a Russian speaking American journalist who has done a special on Putin, I have watched it twice. It was created before the current war, but after the seizure of Crimea. Free on youtube. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/104 "2023-02-23T22:23:30Z")
Just because it could get worse is no reason to put up with something that is already very bad. Even Prigoshin might come after Putin. If thigs have to become much worse before they become better, that is the way to go – and it would serve Putin right (small consolation). But something must give, Putin and his ilk of fascism must go. In defeat and shame. Navalny? I don’t see it, but if he is the one, who am I to object? ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/105 "2023-02-23T22:26:16Z")
You have to consider the nuclear weapons. Putin won’t fire them, but maybe his hard-core replacement will? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/106 "2023-02-23T22:32:12Z")
I have those weapons very present in my mind. And I am afraid even Putin might fire them off, if cornered. He might be close already. His successor? Maybe too. But that is unchartered territory, and giving in to fascists with nuclear weapons because thy might use them is a recipe for disaster. A nuclear exchange is a disaster too, of course, reminds me of another book titled “The Devil’s Alternative”. “Russian World” is another expression of this nihilistic longing for destruction. Putin must be destroyed to avert the end of our current civilisation, even if we don’t know what comes after him. At least destroying him and his ideology opens the door for something better. Leaving him get away with his aggression just paves the way for more war, more aggression, more oppression and fascism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/107 "2023-02-23T22:32:16Z")
Why would Russia, Putin or anyone else, launch nukes? It would just guarantee their own destruction. Sure, maybe one guy is willing to give an order to destroy the world out of spite, but who would carry out that order when they’re not in danger of destruction? We shouldn’t be handcuffed because of the fear of irrational behavior, which by its very nature is unpredictable. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/108 "2023-02-23T22:32:52Z")
And I don’t want to get bogged down with definitions, but I think it would be accurate to call Putin a Russian nationalist and not a fascist. If only because he calls his enemies fascists too, and it is not especially important except for propaganda. And he has neo-Nazi enemies. For accuracy, I think Russian nationalism is the best descriptor. But I do understand why you want to use the term; it describes an authoritarian regime and has a visceral impact ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/109 "2023-02-23T22:36:49Z")
The entire balance of power between nuclear armed nations is based on the idea that people will follow orders when told to launch nuclear strikes ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/110 "2023-02-23T22:37:39Z")
The entire balance of power between nuclear armed nations is based on the idea that _no one will risk mutually assured destruction by ordering their launch_. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/111 "2023-02-23T22:38:42Z")
Well, yeah. Because the other side has people who will follow orders and also launch ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/112 "2023-02-23T22:41:22Z")
There’s no point to worry about this. We can’t control irrational behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/113 "2023-02-23T22:41:24Z")
Fascism is not the same as nazism, nazism is just one form of fascism. Fascism is a curiously ideology free political movement, it is based on, mainly: a strong leader that identifies (or is identified) with the nation. The nation is defined in blood terms. It is collectivistic, anti-individualistic. It is against women. It is againt minorities, pluralism, anti-rational, often mystical. It is an ideology of exclusion, defined by oposition, not a positive idea, but a confrontational idea. It is based on resentment and revenge. It looks for past wrongs to avenge. I believe all that applies to Russia today. It is fascism, and I don’t use that term lightly. How do you define fascism? > [@WellHelloThere](#): > > And he has neo-Nazi enemies. What?!?!? Even if this was true, what role does it play? ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/114 "2023-02-23T22:47:35Z")
I don’t mind anybody calling the Putin regime fascist, I think a more precise term is better though. His neo-Nazi enemies exist within Russia, I am afraid I may have come across as supporting the “de-Nazification” campaign with that statement, my mistake. Russia itself has more neo Nazis than any nation. ---
**Author:** ![WellHelloThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9dc877/32.png) [@WellHelloThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WellHelloThere)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/115 "2023-02-23T22:51:38Z")
I think there is a point to be made, actually. A stable leader is better than an unstable leader. The devil you know may be better. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/116 "2023-02-23T22:55:00Z")
> [@WellHelloThere](#): > > Well, yeah. Because the other side has people who will follow orders and also launch IMHO the key word is destruction. The idea being that if Nuclear Country B is facing destruction at the hands of Nuclear Country A, then they will drag Nuclear Country A down with them. That doesn’t apply to Russia’s current situation because Russia itself isn’t facing destruction. To the extent they’re having problems, those problems are due to Vladimir Putin, not Ukraine, not NATO, not Zelensky, not Biden, and not any other western leaders, nation, or peoples. Everyone was content to let Putin and Russia be until he launched his invasion, and we all will be happy to once again let Russia be as soon as they stop fucking with us. It’s not that hard to figure out, and doesn’t require the use of nukes by the Russian side. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/117 "2023-02-23T22:57:15Z")
> [@WellHelloThere](#): > > Russia itself has more neo Nazis than any nation. And my point is that _most of them_ are on Putin’s side. And the concept neo Nazi is wrong anyway. Nazis were against _Untermenschen_, and that included explicitly the slavs. They are not Nazis, they are fascists. And the term “Russian World” reflects that, to come back to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/118 "2023-02-23T22:57:48Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > The idea being that if Nuclear Country B is facing destruction at the hands of Nuclear Country A, then they will drag Nuclear Country A down with them. That’s MAD! ---
**Author:** ![Ssounder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@Ssounder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ssounder)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/119 "2023-02-23T23:00:21Z")
News about Russia taking a hit in the hinterland: For months I’ve been hearing various people complain about Heineken slow walking their exit from Russia to gain compliance with sanctions. The company was reporting that it would cost them 300 Million Euros to exit. Then today I see that Bill Gates has acquired $902 million dollars in Heineken stock, which gives him a minority stake in the company. My guess is that Heineken will quickly sober up and get out. I’m purposely not picking your reading source. The attached links are to Bing search terms. [Russia + Heineken](https://www.bing.com/news/search?q=heineken+%2b+russia&go=Search&qs=ds&form=NWRFSH) [Bill Gates + Heineken](https://www.bing.com/news/search?q=bill+gates+%2b+heineken&FORM=NWRFSH) Coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178/120 "2023-02-23T23:00:49Z")
But there is method in this MADness: so far, he got away with it. That must stop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russian-world-may-be-taking-a-hit-in-the-hinterland/979178.md?page=7)