# Russia's Annexation of Crimea - Why do we care? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935 "2014-03-17T18:57:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/41 "2014-03-18T13:35:42Z")
It’s an external power interfering in the internal affairs of a weaker sovereign state. It is also very similar to the Czech Sudetenland; I wonder how long it will be before the Russians decide the situation in the rest of Ukraine is too disturbed that they need to find some locals elsewhere to invite them in there too. I would not compare Putin to Stalin as much as to Katherine the Great. He is an imperialist. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/42 "2014-03-18T13:42:00Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I am confused why Russia gets blamed for “annexing” Crimea. > I thought Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. > > Do we think that vote is so faked that the will of the Crimean population is being thwarted? With 97% approval? Hell yes is this faked. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/43 "2014-03-18T13:45:20Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I am confused why Russia gets blamed for “annexing” Crimea. > I thought Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. > > Do we think that vote is so faked that the will of the Crimean population is being thwarted? How could you possibly be confused? Russian military moved in before they voted to join. Also the Tartars make up about 12% of Crimea’s population who would almost certainly voted against joining Russia. So for some reason their voices aren’t reflected in this referendum. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/44 "2014-03-18T13:59:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > How could you possibly be confused? Russian military moved in before they voted to join. Also the Tartars make up about 12% of Crimea’s population who would almost certainly voted against joining Russia. So for some reason their voices aren’t reflected in this referendum. The Tatars announced they would boycott it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/45 "2014-03-18T14:16:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, AIUI, Crimea does have some special meaning to Russians, as [it was part of Russia until 1954](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#In_the_Soviet_Union). And Ukraine was part of Russia until 1992. So? ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/46 "2014-03-18T17:10:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And Ukraine was part of Russia until 1992. So? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/47 "2014-03-18T17:16:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And Ukraine was part of Russia until 1992. So? Not exactly . . . ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/48 "2014-03-18T17:18:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not exactly . . . ?? Ukraine was “part of Russia” before 1992 in the same manner as Crimea was “part of Ukraine” after 1992 - as an autonomous region that is part of the country. In fact, as “part of Russia” Ukraine had less autonomy than Crimea had before the current events. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/49 "2014-03-18T17:19:04Z")
I dunno, y’all seemed to care a bit more when Saddam Hussein tried to annex Kuwait for some reason… [QUOTE=Malden Capbell] With 97% approval? Hell yes is this faked. [/QUOTE] Perhaps more saliently, with a[123% voter turnout in Sevastopol](http://www.dailydot.com/politics/crimea-referendum-123-percent-sevastopol/). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/50 "2014-03-18T17:30:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > ?? > > Ukraine was “part of Russia” before 1992 in the same manner as Crimea was “part of Ukraine” after 1992 - as an autonomous region that is part of the country. In fact, as “part of Russia” Ukraine had less autonomy than Crimea had before the current events. No, Ukraine was part of the USSR; Russia was another, separate entity within the USSR. It was all just “Russia” under the tsars, every province having a Crown-appointed governor, but the Bolsheviks, despite being internationalists in principle, also had a lot of high-minded ideas about national self-determination, so long as the nation self-determines to follow the vanguard party; hence the complex system they created of “union republics,” “autonomous republics,” “autonomous oblasts,” etc., for every ethnic/national group concentrated in a definable territory. The USSR was like a Russian _matryushka_ nesting-doll, except that when you open the biggest doll you find 15 next-size dolls inside instead of one, and each of those has a different number of dolls inside it and so on. Which is why the collapse of the USSR left the 15 union republics as independent states, but then some of them had unresolved nationalist problems within their borders, nationalities who already had their own local governments and now wanted outright independence, such as Chechnya and Abkhazia and South Ossetia. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/51 "2014-03-18T18:12:09Z")
Maybe, but in practice, it was the same old Moscovite kingdom. The U.S.S.R was nothing more than the Russian empire under new management, and neither Ukraine nor any of the other 13 “republics” were equal partners. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/52 "2014-03-18T18:18:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, Ukraine was part of the USSR; Russia was another, separate entity within the USSR. Trust me, I lived in the USSR for 16 years. The distinction between “Russia” and “USSR” was extremely blurry. “Russia” and “Soviet Union” were freely interchangeable in the language and in the minds of the citizens. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/53 "2014-03-18T19:29:31Z")
No way. Go ahead and ask a Ukrainian whether they lived in Russia under Communism. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/54 "2014-03-18T19:46:08Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > No way. Go ahead and ask a Ukrainian whether they lived in Russia under Communism. Ask someone from Kiev, whether Russian or Ukrainian, in 1980 if he was living in Russia. Most would answer yes. “V Rossii, na Ukraine”. As I said, Russia and “Soviet Union” were interchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/55 "2014-03-18T19:56:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, Ukraine was part of the USSR; Russia was another, separate entity within the USSR. It was all just “Russia” under the tsars, every province having a Crown-appointed governor, but the Bolsheviks, despite being internationalists in principle, also had a lot of high-minded ideas about national self-determination, so long as the nation self-determines to follow the vanguard party; hence the complex system they created of “union republics,” “autonomous republics,” “autonomous oblasts,” etc., for every ethnic/national group concentrated in a definable territory. The USSR was like a Russian _matryushka_ nesting-doll, except that when you open the biggest doll you find 15 next-size dolls inside instead of one, and each of those has a different number of dolls inside it and so on. Which is why the collapse of the USSR left the 15 union republics as independent states, but then some of them had unresolved nationalist problems within their borders, nationalities who already had their own local governments and now wanted outright independence, such as Chechnya and Abkhazia and South Ossetia. This may have been true in theory, but in reality everyone in the USSR since the 1920s or so viewed the USSR as more or less a modern successor to the Russian Empire, and the notion of “national self-determination” as more or less a bad joke. Hence, for example, “Russification” in Ukraine, and the attack on “nationalist deviation”. The current crisis is really just another round of this process, which has been going on since the time of the Tsars. > **[Russification of Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine)** > > The Russification of Ukraine (Ukrainian: зросійщення України; Russian: русификация Украины) was a system of measures, actions and legislations undertaken by the Imperial Russian and later Soviet authorities to strengthen Russian national, political and linguistic positions in Ukraine. > In 1720 Tsar Peter I of Russia issued a decree in which he ordered the expurgation of all Little Russian (Ukrainian) linguistic elements in theological literature printed in Little Russian typographical establish... ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/56 "2014-03-18T20:00:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ask someone from Kiev, whether Russian or Ukrainian, in 1980 if he was living in Russia. Most would answer yes. “V Rossii, na Ukraine”. As I said, Russia and “Soviet Union” were interchangeable. “Ruskiy, c Ukraini”, ili, “ya Ukrainetz”. That’s what I grew up with, in Kiev in the 70’s. ---
**Author:** ![Anondragon2012](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anondragon2012](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anondragon2012)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/57 "2014-03-18T20:16:19Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I get the whole spread of democracy, the cold war nostalgia, etc. > > But at the risk of reading like some anti-democractic flower child, I just do not get why we care SO much. I know it is in our countries DNA (see Vietnam, Egypt and the middle east just to name a few) and maybe that is the only answer, but isn’t it time we stop being the world police and worry about people at home? > > Our efforts each time generally fail (North Vietnam being the best example) and I suspect that if we applied even half of the “economic support” we offer aboard to our own country, many improvements in the lives of our citizens could be realized (bungling government officials notwithstanding). > > Yes we would prefer democracy everywhere, but its cost is in the billions. USA will never be isolationist as long as the elites which run the country since WW2 run it. Whether its Obama, Bush, Democratic, Republican…As long as the USA has the funds, it will play the game of geopolitics. USA knows very damn well: In Modern World if you’re strong and neutral it makes no sense. China, Russia, hell even Brazil, India, etc…They will eat the pie you leave on the table. USA is world police not because of some sense of democracy or being good guys. USA is evil state like all other states, and just plays in the giant game of chess played across the world. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/58 "2014-03-18T21:00:20Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > “Ruskiy, c Ukraini”, ili, “ya Ukrainetz”. > > That’s what I grew up with, in Kiev in the 70’s. Russian from Ukraine, or Ukrainian. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/59 "2014-03-18T21:01:37Z")
The idea that Russia and USSR were interchangeable is an American ignorance, not a soviet understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935/60 "2014-03-18T21:26:46Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > The idea that Russia and USSR were interchangeable is an American ignorance, not a soviet understanding. No, American ignorance was thinking that the Cold War had anything to do with Communism. Communism was nothing more than the tool Russia used to maintain and project power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-annexation-of-crimea-why-do-we-care/683935.md?page=4)