# Russia's Depopulation Bomb. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898 "2009-04-03T18:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Brandus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/21 "2009-04-03T23:40:35Z")
Are there any theories as to WHY Russians are simply refusing to breed? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/22 "2009-04-04T00:50:53Z")
Russia’s declining population is a function of both a high death rate and the low birth rate. Deaths are due to alcoholism, early heart disease, and accidents. The average male life span is only 59. They also have one of the [highest suicide rates](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)of the world, and six times as many males killing themselves than females. [Depression rates](http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pressparliament/pressreleases2006/pr781.aspx) are high in Russia - 23% of males and 44% of females - and 60% feel that their income and material circumstance as “bad” or “very bad.” Depressed women (and depressed women often have depressed sex drives) with depressed and chronically alcoholic spouses (and chronically alcoholic males are often impotent) who all feel pretty hopeless about how their futures are shaping up. Not a surprise that there aint that much breeding going on or that women are not too excited about having lots of kids. And yeah, they are indeed also [choosing](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3634/is_199811/ai_n8820718/) to not have many kids - most want small families, use birth control, and have no qualms about having an abortion if they get pregnant anyway. > [@](#): > > In the two years preceding the survey about 80-90%, of mistimed conceptions and 95% of unwanted pregnancies were terminated. Overall, 58-63% of pregnancies during this time period ended in abortion. > > Some 54-57% of survey participants had had at least one abortion, and 27-34% had had at least two. Nearly three-quarters of women aged 30-44 had ever had an abortion Mind you this says little about the issue of regional overpopulation elsewhere in the world but we have other threads for that subject. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/23 "2009-04-04T01:14:01Z")
In Russia, you set up them the bomb! ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/24 "2009-04-04T03:00:05Z")
china is not underpopulated. population is concentrated in the eastern third of the country because the western two thirds is largely inhospital. not sure how much population siberia could support? china would be happy to take it over. i’ve alwaays thought japan grossly miscalculated after taking manchuria and rhen going for china and se asia. instead could have carved out siberia? manchuria, mongolia? korea? taiwan and had a sustainable empire ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/25 "2009-04-04T03:22:17Z")
It’s my understanding that Russia has had a very high abortion rate for many years. I’ve read (in a book about Russia) that during the Soviet years Russians were highly suspicious of the Pill (which was hard to get anyway) and that doctors encouraged women not to use it, claiming that it was unnatural, would make you crazy, etc. Abortions were actually considered more ‘natural’ and better for your health–and they were routinely used as birth control. Doctors liked this because they could charge extra for such luxuries as anaesthetic. Anyway, given the history, it’s not at all surprising that Russia has quite a high abortion rate, even if it wasn’t in a tragic death spiral anyway. If China has lots of extra men, and Russia has extra women because of Russian mens’ terrible health and longevity, should the two populations get together? ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/26 "2009-04-04T03:46:58Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > If China has lots of extra men, and Russia has extra women because of Russian mens’ terrible health and longevity, should the two populations get together? [_Chinese husbands welcomed in Russia_](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-08/07/content_659034.htm) > [@](#): > > By Li Qian ([Chinadaily.com.cn](http://Chinadaily.com.cn)) > Updated: 2006-08-07 17:21 > > Recently Russian women are looking to marry Chinese men because of their trustworthiness and romanticism, [Chinanews.com](http://Chinanews.com) reported Monday. > > “Can you introduce some nice Chinese guys to me?” 25-year-old Russian Nadya asked her Chinese boss Zhao Hong, chairwoman of the local Chinese Association in Russia’s fifth largest city Krasnoyarsk, who often receives such requests. > > Among the more than one hundred Chinese families Zhao knows in the city, there are at least five Russian women married to men who work as businessmen, planters, or teachers at a national university. > > Chinese migrant to Russia Ge Youjin and his Russian wife Tatiana had their third child recently. Tatiana said her husband is responsible. “He cherishes our love and doesn’t drink or spend a lot,” she said. > > Ge too admires his wife. “She is hardworking and considerate like other Russian women, and she takes care of the family well.” > > Tatiana has a decent job, and cooks Northeast Chinese cuisine, which makes her husband feel at home. Tatiana now favors rice as a staple food, instead of Russian black bread. > > Guo Jinchang, who has worked in a local farm for a dozen years, noticed some of his Chinese friends married Russian wives. “Chinese are comparatively conservative, which can add to their characteristic charms,” he said. > > Because of World War II, the population of men in Russia has been smaller than that of women, with 47 percent male and 53 percent female, according to figures from the Russian Federation Committee of Statistics. My plan for a Russian/Chinese dating site could not have come at a more opportune time. This should make me a pretty penny. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/27 "2009-04-04T05:00:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > [http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/2009%20-%20Spring/full-Eberstadt.html](http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/2009%20-%20Spring/full-Eberstadt.html) > > I don’t have the skills to really go too deeply into demographic problems but they fascinate me. What do others think of this? Especially since many here take it as gospel that the world is overpopulated and that depopulation essentially is a good thing. Apparently the only reason depopulation in Russia is an issue is because it would affect Russia as a country? It sounds like it is not currently a place anyone wants to live, much less try to raise any children so why should anyone be encouraging them to do so? Doesn’t it make more sense for them to try to get the country back on it’s feet first? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/28 "2009-04-04T05:41:51Z")
How about we encourage both of them to work it out peacefully. If either invades, lots of nukes will be used on the troops, if not the cities. Millions will die. Now I know that doesn’t bother the George Bush School of Strategic Thought, but the worldwide fallout will also kill millions. ---
**Author:** ![First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/First_Amongst_Daves)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/29 "2009-04-04T06:31:29Z")
My understanding was that Siberia was steadily filling with Chinese nationals. I’m not saying its by stealth or government policy, but more of a natural migration northward. No cite sorry - vaguely recall reading it somewhere, and would welcome clarification or repudiation. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/30 "2009-04-04T14:18:13Z")
> [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](#): > > My understanding was that Siberia was steadily filling with Chinese nationals. I’m not saying its by stealth or government policy, but more of a natural migration northward. No cite sorry - vaguely recall reading it somewhere, and would welcome clarification or repudiation. Well some additional information anyway. [First.](http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1062834.html) > [@](#): > > The most viable group of potential labor migrants is the Chinese, primarily because of overpopulation in some Chinese provinces and the countries’ extensive common border. “Whether we like it or not, more and more Chinese are coming to Russia,” Kiselev said. “According to a recent demographic study commissioned by ‘Kommersant-Vlast’ magazine, more and more Chinese migrants are coming to Russia and this year their number will reach 500,000 – both legals and illegals.” > > If that trend continues, by the middle of the 21st century, Russia could be home to 10 million ethnic Chinese. That would make them the second-largest ethnic group in the country after Russians. Such an influx could spark xenophobia among the local population. > > Most Chinese migrants in Russia tend to be either unskilled seasonal workers or small-time traders. Duma Deputy Otari Arshba (Unified Russia), an Interior Ministry migration expert, argued on 7 November that Russia needs to attract a more skilled Chinese workforce. He proposed the introduction of selective immigration for qualified workers and specialists modeled on the point system that was adopted in Canada. Despite some hostility toward foreigners, he said, Russian society should be able to absorb the newcomers. [Second.](http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2009/ea_china0195_03_06.asp) > [@](#): > > Some 50,000 Chinese work legally in Russia’s Primorye region along the Pacific coast. But their actual number is believed to be twice that, according to Russian officials. The Chinese workers earn an average of about $100 a month, half the regular Russian salary but far more than what they could get back home. Other resident Chinese are traders operating the gray markets between the two countries. > > Agreement on setting the 2,700-mile border in October 2004 was supposed to have resolved issues — including immigration — dating back over 300 years to the Russian empire’s push into relatively uninhabited areas. But the Chinese still lament “the lost one and a half million kilometers transferred to the Russian Empire” in the so-called “unequal treaties” of the 19th century at the high-water mark of European colonial penetration of China. Chinese authorities are supposed to be cooperating with Moscow in preserving the demographic imbalance between northeast China’s growing 110 million and the Russian Far East’s dwindling 6.6 million. > > But the overall decline in the Slav population of the Russian Federation and an out-migration to other parts of Russia from the RFE have taken a heavy toll. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the RFE Russian population has dropped by 14 percent in the last 15 years. The Russian government has discussed a range of re-population programs and economic development to avoid a projected drop to 4.5 million people by 2015. But like other Russian economic programs repeatedly announced and revamped, this has not been happening. … the Chinese could become the dominant population in much of the Russian Far East later in this century. [Third.](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-04/02/content_841940.htm) > [@](#): > > A piece of bad news for nearly-a-million Chinese immigrant traders in Russia: > > The Kremlin began a ban on immigrant venders in its market from April 1, forcing foreign traders to pack up their stalls and leaving dozens of kiosks empty. > > The controversial decision announced by Russia looks to improve conditions for Russian traders, a report carried by Reuters reported Sunday. > > Immigrant venders are only allowed to work as porters, cleaners, wholesalers. They are not permitted to directly sell goods to local customers. [Fourth.](http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/Current-Affairs/Security-Watch/Detail/?ots591=4888CAA0-B3DB-1461-98B9-E20E7B9C13D4&lng=en&id=53091) > [@](#): > > critics have questioned the strategic wisdom of the Kremlin’s policy to develop stronger ties with Beijing, including arms sales and energy supplies to China. Some Russian politicians have complained about Chinese maps allegedly showing vast areas of the Russian Far East “in Chinese colors” and have warned that uncontrolled Chinese immigration into these sparsely populated regions could entail a form of soft annexation of Russian territory eventually. … The Kremlin’s program to revive the country’s Far East involves building refineries, metal plants and nuclear power facilities. It also calls for the creation of new jobs and plans to reverse the ongoing exodus of people from Russia’s Far East. > > Other official measures seem to be aimed at dealing with concerns of Far Eastern residents about the growing number of Chinese migrants. From 1 April, the Russian government banned all foreigners from trading in street markets, thus leaving many Chinese in with little option but go back home. > > Russia’s Far East includes 13 Russian regions stretching over 40 percent of Russia’s territory and possessing vast amounts of natural resources - virtually all of the country’s diamonds, two-thirds of its gold deposits, as well as sizable hydrocarbon, timber and fishery resources. > > Apart from economic development plans, the Kremlin has prioritized Far Eastern military security issues as well. The country’s Far Eastern military district has been holding major annual war-games since 2002, involving land and air forces and Interior Ministry troops. So let’s put all this together, shall we? Ethnic Russians are a vanishing breed and it appears do not really want to live in Russia’s Far East. The ethnic Chinese population in Russia’s Far East is growing fast, has strong ties back home, is a tight community, and as much as their labor may be needed is not being welcomed as members of Russian society - they are “others”. Russian nationalism has often had a strong ethnic component to it. Ethnic Chinese in Russia are unlikely to develop a strong Russian national identity any time soon. China needs the natural resources that are contained in the Russian Far East and likely will for many years and Russia’s economy right now is based on very little but the exploitation of natural resources. The EU hopes to eventually be less dependent on Russia for natural gas and we are already getting a taste of what Russia’s economy will be dealing with in a possible future world with less demand for its resources. An invasion by China seems less likely than eventual moves for “autonomy” if not outright independence from Russia with perhaps some covert support from China. How that plays out I would not hazard a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/31 "2009-04-04T15:49:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > How that plays out I would not hazard a guess. I would - the Russians would fight it tooth and nail, up to and including the use of nuclear weapons. You have no idea how deep the Russian fear of foreign invasion goes. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/32 "2009-04-04T16:58:47Z")
Remind anyone a little bit of Alsace-Lorraine? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/33 "2009-04-04T17:09:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I would - the Russians would fight it tooth and nail, up to and including the use of nuclear weapons. You have no idea how deep the Russian fear of foreign invasion goes. I dunno, once the WW2 generation and their children die off, and given a few generations of disaffected and cynical replacements… Russia as we know it could slip away and few would care. I figure breakaway efforts like Chechnya will only increase, and the brutality of Russia’s responses will only demonstrate their desperation. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/34 "2009-04-04T19:28:05Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Apparently the only reason depopulation in Russia is an issue is because it would affect Russia as a country? It sounds like it is not currently a place anyone wants to live, much less try to raise any children so why should anyone be encouraging them to do so? Doesn’t it make more sense for them to try to get the country back on it’s feet first? If they don’t breed they can never get back on their feet, that’s part of the point. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/35 "2009-04-04T19:34:57Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Remind anyone a little bit of Alsace-Lorraine? Could you expand a bit on this? Seems like something I should be reminded of but I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/36 "2009-04-04T19:42:33Z")
Alsace-Lorraine is that little region in France that borders Germany and was part of Germany from Franco-Prussian War in 1871 until the end of World War I. Germany has a much larger population than France. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/37 "2009-04-04T19:56:07Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > Alsace-Lorraine is that little region in France that borders Germany and was part of Germany from Franco-Prussian War in 1871 until the end of World War I. Germany has a much larger population than France. Right. I understood that, but was there German migration into it that preceded the war? ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/38 "2009-04-04T20:54:53Z")
The area was mostly German speaking. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/39 "2009-04-04T22:20:14Z")
Then I still fail to see the corrolation. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898/40 "2009-04-04T22:20:49Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > The area was mostly German speaking. And is still heavily German-influenced. Look at the names of the well-known wineries: Trimbach, Zind-Humbrecht, Weinbach, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russias-depopulation-bomb/491898.md?page=3)