# Ruth Bader Ginsburg doesn't give a shit
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 3, 2006, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874 "2006-03-03T06:33:00Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/1 "2006-03-03T06:33:00Z")
Either that, or else she’s senile, or else I am wildly naive about the Supreme Court.
The SC is currently hearing a very important case on gerrymandering. At issue is what, if any restrictions there should be on how (and how often) state legislatures can redraw congressional districts.
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, however, seems to find the case not so important: [
> [@](#):
>
> At first, she appeared to be reading something in her lap. But after a while, it became clear: Ginsburg was napping on the bench. By Bloomberg News’s reckoning – not denied by a court spokeswoman – Ginsburg’s snooze lasted a quarter of an hour.
]([http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/01/AR2006030102267.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/01/AR2006030102267.html))Nobody in the media is making a big deal about this, so maybe I’m completely wrong here – doper lawyers can correct me – but it seems to me that falling asleep during arguments is a pretty lousy thing for a judge to be doing.
I have no doubt that the part of argument she missed was complicated and boring; but she’s a judge for crying out loud – _the law_ is complicated and boring, which is what we have professional lawyers and judges for. And I have no doubt that the part she slept through was not going to be decisive in her ruling (of course, how would she know?). But if nothing else, show a little respect for the office you hold. If you can’t at least comport yourself with the dignity befitting it, you don’t belong there anymore.
Of course, she won’t resign as long is there is a Republican in office … so an added “fuck you” to all those who aided in the politicization of the judiciary.
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/2 "2006-03-03T06:34:54Z")
[link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/01/AR2006030102267.html)
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/3 "2006-03-03T06:41:05Z")
Lame.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/4 "2006-03-03T06:44:55Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> Of course, she won’t resign as long is there is a Republican in office … so an added “fuck you” to all those who aided in the politicization of the judiciary.
Historically, do Justices normally resign after they fall asleep in court? I didn’t know recent partisanship eliminated that tradition.
It’s embarrassing and there’s nothing good to say about it (unless you find her honesty refreshing), but your reaction seems a little out of proportion to what happened. Also- I’m not a doctor, of course, but falling asleep is not as sign of senility as far as I know.
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### Author:  [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/5 "2006-03-03T06:46:22Z")
She’s a Supreme Court Jurist. If falling asleep during arguments brought before the Court aren’t a big deal, then the Court itself and cases before it aren’t a big deal. And it that’s the case what the hell does it matter whom serves on the Court.
I wonder how a thread like this would’ve started out if it was Thomas or Scalia that fell asleep during proceedings. If you can’t stay awake working the hours the Justices do for the most part, maybe you shouldn’t have a position that wields that much power.
Just saying…
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/6 "2006-03-03T06:49:38Z")
It’s a lifetime appointment. Suck it.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/7 "2006-03-03T06:53:25Z")
Ah, that old warhorse, the Presumed Hypocrisy Argument. Airtight as ever, **duffer**.
If she was out drinking until 4 a.m. the previous day, I might agree that she doesn’t take her job seriously. But a 15-minute nap, especially when the OP of the Pit Thread admits it’s unlikely to make any kind of difference in the case, just doesn’t freak me out. Shit happens, and besides, she’s 72. And before we get into that, although perhaps term limits on the Court are an okay idea, she’s only a couple of years older than most of her colleagues.
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### Author:  [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/8 "2006-03-03T06:59:47Z")
Doesn’t freak me out either. I admit I’m a bit ignorant on arguments brought to the Supreme Court. Are the arguments scripted? Is there a template they follow that states there will be certain times when people are just talking and not saying anything that may be germaine to the case? If that’s the case I can see the point of the proceedings at that time no being important.
I always thought if jurors in a lesser court should take into account all the facts of a case, then maybe a judge should do the same. but if falling asleep during a hearing isn’t a big deal, then I stand corrected.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/9 "2006-03-03T07:14:17Z")
Oral arguments are important, but they are not crucial. The orals are transcribed and a justice who is absent due to illness, for example, has access to those transcripts as well as all the rest of the information in the briefs.
In the recent notorious imminent domain case, both Rehnquist and Stevens were absent during the orals and both participated in the decision. (Rehnquist was absent from several oral presentations, but did not recuse himself from any decision based on that absence, that I am aware.)
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/10 "2006-03-03T07:15:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> It’s a lifetime appointment. Suck it.
So, tell us how you feel about Roberts and Alito. Would you say suck it? 🙂
Yeah, this napping thing looks bad, but lets face it. The SCOTUS is more like an old folks home than anything else. Rehnquist was on his deathbed and he wouldn’t retire. We need some mandatory retirement ages for these ossified jurists. Lieftime is one thing, but when you’re nothing more than the walking dead, it’s time to step down.
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### Author:  [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/11 "2006-03-03T07:15:26Z")
There ya go. I stand corrected.
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### Author:  [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/12 "2006-03-03T07:16:29Z")
Er, that was in response to **tomndebb**.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/13 "2006-03-03T07:20:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> So, tell us how you feel about Roberts and Alito. Would you say suck it? 🙂
Absolutely. Renquest was practically in a coma near the end. I’m sure he must have zoned out once in a while during arguments. I didn’t complain. I think that these justices already have a pretty good idea of what the arguments are going to be anyway and they can review them at their leisure. She was only out for 15 minutes and it’s not like she was flying a plane or anything.
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/14 "2006-03-03T07:28:37Z")
Judges (and defense attorneys) are allowed to sleep through MURDER trials.
CMC
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### Author:  [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/15 "2006-03-03T07:31:04Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#):
>
> Judges (and defense attorneys) are allowed to sleep through MURDER trials.
>
> CMC
There you go bringing up OJ!
BTW, can we get a cite? This would be interesting.
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### Author:  [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/16 "2006-03-03T07:32:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Absolutely. Renquest was practically in a coma near the end. I’m sure he must have zoned out once in a while during arguments. I didn’t complain. I think that these justices already have a pretty good idea of what the arguments are going to be anyway and they can review them at their leisure. She was only out for 15 minutes and it’s not like she was flying a plane or anything.
How many cases did he hear while in the coma? Wasn’t the Court recessed during that time?
And really, if the plane is at 36,000 feet with a copilot, so what if the pilot naps? I’d rather he be fresh for the landing than telling me we’re over the Hoover Dam at 3 am.
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/17 "2006-03-03T08:19:20Z")
> [@duffer](#):
>
> …BTW, can we get a cite? This would be interesting.
Ask and ye shall receive,
[
> [@](#):
>
> Death in Texas
> No Requirement That Defense Counsel Be Awake
>
> …The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals has made clear its indifference to the quality of legal representation of those facing death at trial by upholding at least three death sentences from Houston, in which the lawyer for the defendant slept during trial. One of those trials was described in the Houston Chronicle as follows:
>
> ```
> Seated beside his client - a convicted capital murderer - defense attorney John Benn spent much of Thursday afternoon's trial in apparent deep sleep.
> His mouth kept falling open and his head lolled back on his shoulders, and then he awakened just long enough to catch himself and sit upright. Then it happened again. And again. And again.
> Every time he opened his eyes, a different prosecution witness was on the stand describing another aspect of the Nov. 19, 1991, arrest of George McFarland in the robbery-killing of grocer Kenneth Kwan.
> When state District Judge Doug Shaver finally called a recess, Benn was asked if he truly had fallen asleep during a capital murder trial.
> "It's boring," the 72-year-old longtime Houston lawyer ex-plained. . . . Court observers said Benn seems to have slept his way through virtually the entire trial.
>
> ```
>
> The judge presiding over McFarland’s trial in Houston permitted the trial to continue on the theory that “[t]he Constitution doesn’t say the lawyer has to be awake.”
>
> The Court of Criminal Appeals affirmed, over the dissent of Judges Baird and Overstreet. Judge Baird wrote, “[a] sleeping counsel is unprepared to present evidence, to cross-examine witnesses, and to present any coordinated effort to evaluate evidence and present a defense.”
>
> The Court of Criminal Appeals also upheld convictions and death sentences imposed on Calvin Burdine and Carl Johnson, even though Joe Frank Cannon, the lawyer appointed by the trial court to defend them at separate trials, slept during their trials. Cannon is known for hurrying through capital trials like “greased lightning,” occasionally falling asleep, and has had at least 10 clients sentenced to death…
]([http://www.schr.org/reports/docs/champion/](http://www.schr.org/reports/docs/champion/))[
> [@](#):
>
> So why is Max Soffar still on death row?
>
> by Kinky Friedman
> …Chief among these Kafka-esque elements is the fact that Max’s state-appointed attorney was the late Joe Cannon, who was infamous for sometimes sleeping through his clients’ capital murder trials. Cannon managed to stay awake for Max’s, but he did not bother to interview the one witness who might have cleared him. There are, incidentally, ten men on death row who were clients of Cannon’s…
](["Case Open: No physical evidence. No witnesses. A recanted confession. So why is Max Soffar still on death row?"](http://www.pallorium.com/ARTICLES/art34.html))[
> [@](#):
>
> Judge’s Mistakes Provide Good Reasons
> for Overturning Case Against Microsoft
>
> Dozing in Court
>
> This disappointing record has already drawn comment from some court observers. Professor Don Thompson of York University has called Judge Jackson “the most reversed judge on the D.C. Circuit.” Some observers question whether this judge had the technical knowledge to oversee a case that turns on the precise design of complex computer software products. During parts of the trial Judge Jackson was seen to drift off to sleep on the bench, sometimes for several minutes at a time.
]([Page Not Found » Search » Washington Policy Center](http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/GovtRegulations/PNMicrosoft01-9.html))[
> [@](#):
>
> Another sleeping complaint surfaces against judge
>
> February 18, 2006
>
> DOVER, N.H. --More complaints are surfacing against a Rockingham County judge accused of sleeping on the job.
>
> A Derry woman on Thursday sent new complaints to the state Judicial Conduct Committee, which is investigating allegations that Superior Court Judge Patricia Coffey napped through a sexual assault trial and other proceedings.
>
> Shayla Savageau told the Portsmouth Herald that during a sentencing hearing for her fiance, she saw Coffey’s eyes fluttering as the judge appeared to be “fighting to stay awake.”…
> …“The best way I could describe this is that she was nodding off,” she said. “I’m not doing this to get him out. I just don’t think she should be a judge.”…
> …Melissa Spinner publicized a questionnaire in which two of the seven jurors said they had seen Coffey doze off during the trial, prompting others to step forward with similar complaints.
>
> Jeffrey Carano of Epping claimed he saw Coffey “out cold” in the courtroom. Teri Eldridge of Exeter said she also saw Coffey sleeping in court.
]([http://www.boston.com/news/local/new\_hampshire/articles/2006/02/18/another\_sleeping\_complaint\_surfaces\_against\_judge/](http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2006/02/18/another_sleeping_complaint_surfaces_against_judge/))
CMC
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### Author:  [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/18 "2006-03-03T08:20:49Z")
Ronald Reagan would [nap](http://www.leadershipnow.com/leadershop/4428-1excerpt.html) at Cabinet meetings. They probably weren’t very interesting anyway.
I’m not sure what the policy should be regarding the elderly in high office.
In other (2001) news ["A US appeals court has ruled that a man on death row](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1490734.stm) should have a new trial because his lawyer fell asleep during the original murder trial.
Jurors and court officials agreed that lawyer Joe Cannon dozed off up to 10 times for as long as 10 minutes each during Calvin Burdine’s 1984 trial in Texas… In October 2000, a lower court had ruled that although Mr Cannon had fallen asleep, it had not been during important bits of the trial and therefore the murder conviction and death sentence were upheld."
On preview, aw jeez: beat me to it!
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/19 "2006-03-03T08:29:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> Oral arguments are important, but they are not crucial. The orals are transcribed and a justice who is absent due to illness, for example, has access to those transcripts as well as all the rest of the information in the briefs.
>
> In the recent notorious imminent domain case, both Rehnquist and Stevens were absent during the orals and both participated in the decision. (Rehnquist was absent from several oral presentations, but did not recuse himself from any decision based on that absence, that I am aware.)
So in other words, #3? 😉
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2006, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ruth-bader-ginsburg-doesnt-give-a-shit/346874/20 "2006-03-03T11:28:06Z")
I’m quite certain Justice Ginsburg is not senile. However, it is fairly well known that she’s in rather poor health.
I certainly don’t wish her any harm, but when Supreme Court pundits talk about a possible third Bush appointment, they often have her in mind.
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