# Ryan\_Liam: Shut the fuck up, you stinking pile of shit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522 "2006-06-21T02:10:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/21 "2006-06-21T14:16:48Z")
Ryan, I would be thrilled to death if you were right on Iraq. Nobody is saying, “yippee, there still is death and destruction in Iraq and I was right!” If tomorrow the Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds start dancing cheek to cheek and singing kumbaya, I’d rejoice with everyone else. But how long must it go on before we say “hey, we tried. Let’s cut the losses and not throw good bodies after bad”? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/22 "2006-06-21T14:20:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > But how long must it go on before we say “hey, we tried. Let’s cut the losses and not throw good bodies after bad”? Just a thought… How would things have turned out if we had booked out of Germany in the late 1940’s? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/23 "2006-06-21T14:36:06Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Just a thought… > > How would things have turned out if we had booked out of Germany in the late 1940’s? Ahhh, yes, I remember, those 10’s of thousands of casualties due to Nazi terrorists. I bet if we would have withdrawn, they would have toppled the Bonn government and took over, instituting a massacre of Jews and suspected Jewish sympathizers. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/24 "2006-06-21T14:40:42Z")
Just curious, does anyone have any stats on US casualties in Germany following V-E Day? I would wager it isn’t as large a number as those in Iraq following Mission Accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/25 "2006-06-21T14:41:58Z")
What in the living name of Jaysus does post war Germany have to do with Iraq? Apart from bullshit ignorant attempts at point scoring that is. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/26 "2006-06-21T14:43:16Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > How would things have turned out if we had booked out of Germany in the late 1940’s? Gosh, how spectacularly apposite. Indeed, how could any sane person fail to see the parallels between resisting a hegemonistic superpower hell-bent on world domination, and deliberate invasion and occupation with the intent of exporting democracy? Thank goodness you pointed that out. That’s changed my entire thinking about the war in Iraq, that has. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/27 "2006-06-21T14:47:28Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > How would things have turned out if we had booked out of Germany in the late 1940’s? Russia may have invaded. Not really an equivalent situation. Hey, if we’re not allowed to draw parallels with Vietnam, you’re not allowed to draw parallels with WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/28 "2006-06-21T14:47:51Z")
Of course, Germany wasn’t full of suicide bombers, and every country around Germany wasn’t embroiled in thousand-year racial and turf conflicts and happen to blame the U.S. and its allies for all the ails in the world. At any rate … **Happy Clam** , what you are insinuating is a really frightening prospect, and I hope to Hell you are wrong. Let’s see: Bush’s War of Non-Conquest was intentionally ill-concieved so as to leave the most fanatical peoples of the Middle East blasting each other into a state of barbarism until a time we can freely step in and set up shop without interference. Am I right? Scary. I think complete lack of planning through stupidity is far preferable to this cold, nay, diabolical, alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/29 "2006-06-21T14:49:02Z")
should have previewed, so I knew others had beat me to the basic point; still, perhaps there’s some authority in repetition ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/30 "2006-06-21T14:52:45Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It’s a zero sum game douchebag It’s not a game at all, you ignorant twat. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/31 "2006-06-21T15:05:22Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Gosh, how spectacularly apposite. Indeed, how could any sane person fail to see the parallels between resisting a hegemonistic superpower hell-bent on world domination, and deliberate invasion and occupation with the intent of exporting democracy? Thank goodness you pointed that out. That’s changed my entire thinking about the war in Iraq, that has. My question was more about how the U.S. had to remain in Germany for 12 years after the new government had been established to help keep the region stable. If you use that as a barometer, we’ll be in Iraq for quite a while. In retrospect, I should’ve asked this question in another forum where people don’t feel the need to reply with snark just because of the forum. Good show, chap. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/32 "2006-06-21T15:06:58Z")
> [@Gorgon Heap](#): > > Of course, Germany wasn’t full of suicide bombers, and every country around Germany wasn’t embroiled in thousand-year racial and turf conflicts and happen to blame the U.S. and its allies for all the ails in the world. > At any rate … **Happy Clam** , what you are insinuating is a really frightening prospect, and I hope to Hell you are wrong. > > Let’s see: Bush’s War of Non-Conquest was intentionally ill-concieved so as to leave the most fanatical peoples of the Middle East blasting each other into a state of barbarism until a time we can freely step in and set up shop without interference. Am I right? Scary. > > I think complete lack of planning through stupidity is far preferable to this cold, nay, diabolical, alternative. I hope to hell I am wrong as well, mainly because I insinuated no such thing (it was **BobLibDem** and **ululate** ). I agree with you that stupidity is a far more likely explanation than malicious conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/33 "2006-06-21T15:25:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I tend to agree. While the administration’s morals are as low as they go, I don’t believe that they intended for the chaos that Iraq has become. They would have preferred that the Iraqis throw flowers at the troops and statues to Bush be erected thoughout Iraq. The chaos was an unintended result and the profits to the oil companies an unexpected bonus from their point of view. It’s an ongoing saga of ignoring the facts, changing the facts, lying, and gross criminal incompetence. over and over and over again. No one could have foreseen. Nobody could have anticipated. Catastrophic success. Repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/34 "2006-06-21T15:34:15Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Nobody could have anticipated. That one just _[Keeps on Giving](http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060620/1008227.asp)_ > [@](#): > > VP Cheney, this week: > “I don’t think anybody anticipated the level of violence that we’ve encountered” ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/35 "2006-06-21T16:25:24Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > My question was more about how the U.S. had to remain in Germany for 12 years after the new government had been established to help keep the region stable. If you use that as a barometer, we’ll be in Iraq for quite a while. Perhaps if Germany had been initially invaded when previously at peace, and had then devolved into a near civil war as a result of the invaders’ actions, then the comparison might bear some examination. Or perhaps if there were a communist superpower waiting to invade Iraq. Or maybe if Iraq were a beaten aggressor nation, wanting nothing but peace. Perhaps if there weren’t more people dying now under our “stabilising” influence than there were before we thought about invading. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. The USA has _created_ a warzone in Iraq on its own, and shows no real sign of having the plan or initiative to achieve stability. Civilians and troops are dying at levels never seen in post-war Europe, with no sign whatsoever that things are getting better. I’m sorry, but the analogy simply doesn’t work on just about any level other than “it was an occupation”, and moreover suffers from being part of the endless parade of WWII comparisons when it comes to the USA’s latest bout of adventurism. I (and many others) are positively sick of this war being painted as some moral duty, and invocations of the undeniably just effort in WWII strike me as cheap, lazy and tired. I’m sorry if that wasn’t what you were going for, but that’s what it came across as. Hell, I don’t even support withdrawal (yet), but come _on_. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/36 "2006-06-21T17:05:17Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It’s a zero sum game douchebag, if Iraqi Government fails to limit sectarian violence, then it’s ability to strengthen it’s hold over the state will fail, and concequently it’ll fall right? First of all, I don’t think you know what a zero sum game is. U.S. Congressional elections are a zero sum game: the number of seats is fixed, so a gain by one party is a loss for the other. Iraq stabilizing vs. falling into civil war is not a zero sum game, as there is no conserved quantity. Second of all, you’re not being Pitted for noting that it’s important for the Iraqi government to limit violence in order to succeed. That brilliant and unique insight is of course beyond reproach. You’re being Pitted for suggesting that critics of the war like **RTFirefly** would be _happy_ if it failed and Iraq descended into civil war and chaos. Considering people like **RTFirefly** used the likelihood of sectarian violence and civil war as an argument against the war from the beginning, it’s both unbelievably stupid and unbelievably offensive to imply such an outcome would now make them happy. Believing Iraq may be a no-win situation is not the same as wanting it to fail. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/37 "2006-06-21T17:08:38Z")
> [@Happy Clam](#): > > I can’t remember where I’m stealing this from, but I once read this tactic on behalf of the right\* described as a conversation between a concerned liberal (CL) and a conservative about to jump out of a window I think this is why somebody once asked John Cleese if the Dead Parrot Sketch was about the Vietnam War. And I completely agree with **Little Nemo** ’s “team” explanation. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/38 "2006-06-21T17:31:23Z")
Well? Was it? ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/39 "2006-06-21T17:40:54Z")
Ah. **ululate** had quoted you in his post to that effect - thus my confusion in reading too quickly, **Happy**. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522/40 "2006-06-21T17:46:12Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > How would things have turned out if we had booked out of Germany in the late 1940’s? Ooh! Two of my favorite things–historical hypotheticals and shitty analogies–wrapped up in one tasty package! I want to play, too! How would things have turned out if Richard II had [conquered Jerusalem in 1192](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Crusade), despite the fact that he knew he couldn’t hold the city? How would things have turned out if Robert E. Lee had endorsed the idea of a guerilla war in April, 1865 instead of recognizing the South was beaten and moving toward reconciliation, much like the Germans did 80 years later? How would things have turned out if Hirohito had listened to Yamamoto and not initiated a sneak attack against the United States in order to start a war to secure his oil supply? How would things have turned out if George W. Bush had finished the job in Afghanistan and rebuilt (or maybe just “built”) the country, and put forth the necessary resources to win the hearts and minds of the Afghans, thus separating Al Qaeda from their base of support in the Muslim world by winning the “war of ideas” instead of foolishly deciding to invade Iraq–despite the fact that Iraq had jack shit to do with September 11 and that Osama bin Laden was still free in Tora Bora? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ryan_liam-shut-the-fuck-up-you-stinking-pile-of-shit/361522.md?page=3)