# S.D. Gov'r "inclined" to ban abortions, shoves head up ass **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 25, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066 "2006-02-25T13:49:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/401 "2006-03-03T05:26:02Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > I think they are all wrong, and that some people try to use those reasons to justify abortion for any reason. So a woman not wanting to put her health in jeopardy is just trying to justify. A young girl not wanting to be beaten by her abusive father is just making excuses. Someone not wanting to have to deal with being pregnant by her rapist is only fooling herself. Riiiiiight. **Updike** , stop trying to speak for women everywhere, you fucking cunt. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/402 "2006-03-03T05:32:18Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > I don’t think anyone’s claiming that _all_ of them are for those reasons. But what is your position on the ones that are NOT for the sake of convenience? And what’s your position on S.D.'s infant mortality rate? > [@](#): > > …There was also a strong link between early prenatal care and a lower infant mortality rate. The lowest infant mortality rate was among mothers who started prenatal care in their first trimester, 6.9 per 1,000 live births. **The highest rate, 59.4, was among mothers who had no prenatal care** … CMC ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/403 "2006-03-03T05:34:19Z")
Not you **Superdude** , **Updike** ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/404 "2006-03-03T05:41:36Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > And what’s your position on S.D.'s infant mortality rate? > CMC Doens’t have anything to do with abortion, is my position. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/405 "2006-03-03T05:50:23Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Doesn’t have anything to do with abortion, is my position. So, preventing babies from dying, because their mothers had no prenatal care, isn’t part of the “pro-life” agenda? Verrry pro-life! CMC ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/406 "2006-03-03T05:52:26Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So, preventing babies from dying, because their mothers had no prenatal care, isn’t part of the “pro-life” agenda? > Verrry pro-life! > > CMC No, neo-natal care is the repsonsibility of, you know, the mother, not the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/407 "2006-03-03T05:54:08Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > No, neo-natal care is the repsonsibility of, you know, the mother, not the rest of us. And yet, many women can’t afford it and have to rely on publically funded services. Tell me, how many women’s charities do you support? Do you donate money to organizations dedicated to offering these women help? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/408 "2006-03-03T05:56:18Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > No, neo-natal care is the responsibility of, you know, the mother, not the rest of us. Pro-life as long as it doesn’t cost us anything. CMC ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/409 "2006-03-03T05:57:13Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And yet, many women can’t afford it and have to rely on publically funded services. > > Tell me, how many women’s charities do you support? Do you donate money to organizations dedicated to offering these women help? I was too hasty in my last post. Neo-natal care is the responsibility of the mother and the father, or course. AND NO ONE ELSE. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/410 "2006-03-03T05:59:09Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > I was too hasty in my last post. Neo-natal care is the responsibility of the mother and the father, or course. AND NO ONE ELSE. So you don’t bother to help these charities out, correct? So basically, if the parents can’t afford it, screw them, right? ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/411 "2006-03-03T06:08:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So you don’t bother to help these charities out, correct? So basically, if the parents can’t afford it, screw them, right? How much money have you given to charity from your parents’ basement? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/412 "2006-03-03T06:32:20Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Look **eleanorigby** , it is my belief that all abortions are a grave evil. So your blathering about medical/psychological/hereditary reasons are just not going to wash. There are an average of 1.5 MILLION abortions in the US per year. Are you seriously claiming that all of them are for those reasons, and not for convenience? If you believe that all abortions are a grave evil, then why are you even arguing about what proportion of them may or may not be for convenience? What does it matter? > [@Updike](#): > > I think they are all wrong, and that some people try to use those reasons to justify abortion for any reason. No, you’re wrong. They’re all fine, and if you’re not the one having them it’s none of your business. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/413 "2006-03-03T07:18:19Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > No, the government is not responsible for feeding, clothing, or housing anyone. As much as you like it to be so, that is not reality. This is not Sweden or Cuba. I was speaking of moral responsibility, not legal. I’m well aware of the near-sociopathy of most Americans. > [@Updike](#): > > And you fancy yourself a mind-reader, too? I want the mother and the child “to die as slowly and unpleasantly as possible”. Of course you do. Otherwise, you wouldn’t want to force women to bear children and die of starvation. > [@Updike](#): > > YOU ARE A JERK. Better a jerk than a monster. You are the latter. > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Actually, I agree with **Updike** here. That the result of making abortion illegal will create untold amounts of extra births every year is not your government’s reponsibility. If the government were to pass a law banning alcohol, it doesn’t have the responsibility to reimburse breweries and bars for their loss of revenue. The government’s responsibilities are merely (in the abortion scenario) stop murder from ocurring, and for that they have made sure the law only allows abortion up till before the point the foetus is imbued with “personhood”. No, it’s more like the government passing a law forcing people to drink a bottle of vodka a day, and refusing to do anything to help with the resulting medical disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/414 "2006-03-03T10:18:00Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > No, it’s more like the government passing a law forcing people to drink a bottle of vodka a day, and refusing to do anything to help with the resulting medical disaster. Ok, let’s go with your example. The government doesn’t have to help with the resulting medical disaster. You don’t have free medical care. It would be morally pretty damn _bad,_ but the government has no legal requirement to act. CMC, thanks for your nitpicks, you’re right, of course. 🙂 Question for Updike - what is your position on care and foster homes? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/415 "2006-03-03T10:28:51Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > I was too hasty in my last post. Neo-natal care is the responsibility of the mother and the father, or course. AND NO ONE ELSE. This, sir, is unfortunately epitome of what I find offensive about the whole pro-life movement. Killing unborn babies is horrible, sinful, and, as you said, “a grave evil.” Allowing babies who have been born to die; allowing babies to die of miscarriages because the mothers can’t afford prenatal care is perfectly acceptable because it’s somebody else’s problem. Look, as it happens, I find abortion morally wrong and I do think in some cases it’s killing a child, although I don’t have the arrogance to presume I know when a fertilized egg becomes ensouled, to use an old word. I also live in a world in which things sometimes go horribly wrong and there is no good alternative. **Updike** , I find your disregard for the preventable deaths of children to be every bit of offensive as I suspect you find my belief that abortion must be kept legal. It speaks to me of a callous disregard for life. It seems to me you’re attitude is, “Learn you’re pregnant after your husband has left you for another woman? Tough luck. You shouldn’t have had sex with your husband.” “Learn you have cancer which will kill you if it’s untreated, even though you’re pregnant? Well, you may have left your other children motherless because you died, but at least you weren’t an evil woman who had an abortion.” “Lost your home, declared bankruptcy, and gave birth to a child with spina bifida because you couldn’t afford health insurance or prenatal care? Too bad, but hey, you didn’t have an abortion.” The latter, I admit, I made up, but I don’t think it’s unrealistic. **Raindog** , I don’t think you and I are all that far apart, actually. As I said, I think abortion is morally wrong, although I don’t think life begins at fertilization simply because fertilized eggs don’t necessarily implant in a woman’s uterus and we’ve know way of knowing how many do or do not. There’s also the matter of ectopic pregnancies which bother me, even if they don’t seem to bother anyone else. I am, however, firmly pro-choice in that I don’t think it’s the government’s place to interfere in this decision. I believe abortion should be kept legal. As a young woman in the 1980’s, I was also put off by the cruelty and rudeness of the radical pro-life movement. I find abortion morally wrong and something to be avoided at all costs. There are also circumstances under which I would have an abortion. I’ve been lucky and sensible. Unlike some Dopers, I haven’t been one of the less than 1% for whom a particular form of birth control fails. Unlike others, I haven’t been raped. I’ve also lived by my moral standards which some would call high, yet, when it comes to abortion, I feel like I find myself lumped in with sluts or, as you said earlier, women who care more about their bikini lines than human life. That’s not true. These days, it’s not that easy to find my bikini line and I wouldn’t inflict the sight of me in a bikini on my fellow men and women. 😉 I would not, however, choose to carry a child to term who would be born with severe handicaps. Neither the gentleman nor I have the resources to care for such a child and the odds of such a child being adopted are very low indeed. I would not want to carry a rapist’s child to term. I’ve had a history of clinical depression. Even though it seems to have sorted itself out, it wasn’t that long ago that I was at risk of suicide because I was out of work. The complications to my mental health if that situation were compounded by an unwanted pregnancy are not complications I would want to undergo. What really put me off former vice president Dan Quayle wasn’t the many times he misspoke or said something ridiculous. It was when he said something perfectly understandable. This man who said he was pro-life and that abortion should be illegal was asked what would happen if one of his daughters was raped. He said he would want her to be able to have an abortion. That’s what I ask. Not that abortion be considered a good and common thing; not that we as a society and as individuals do everything we can to prevent abortions; but that they remain safe, legal and available for those times when it’s the least bad alternative available. Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/416 "2006-03-03T12:50:14Z")
One more thing before I bury myself in work. There’s been a lot of talk about individuals being responsible for the consequences of their actions. The same applies to societies. If we, as a society, decide to ban abortion completely or nearly completely, then we, as a society, will be faced with children who would otherwise have been aborted. Some of these children will be adopted into what one hopes will be good homes. Others, however, will remain with parents who are unable to adequately care for them for a variety of reasons, including poverty which makes it difficult to provide adequate food, shelter, and health care, and lack of parenting skills. To wipe one’s hands of the problem and say, “Once the child is born, it’s the parents’ responsibility, not society’s” to me, is akin to a father walking away from his unborn child because it’s the mother’s responsibility, not his. We, as a society, required that this child be born; it is up to us, as a society to do what we can to assist him or her and face the consequences of our actions. CJ ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/417 "2006-03-03T13:15:28Z")
Hear, hear, **Siege**. Well said. From the devil himself (aka Clinton): legal, safe and rare. IIRC, the number of abortions is declining in this country. The number of teen pregnancies is too. (or was, but what with abstinence education, it’s bound to go back up). AB isn’t a manicure or a day at a spa. IMO, those here opposed to AB need to stop reading inflammatory “literature” put out by hate groups disguised as “christians” and look at the facts. You may well still disapprove, but the judgement needs to end. It is not for you to judge anyone, lest you…you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/418 "2006-03-03T13:22:36Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > How much money have you given to charity from your parents’ basement? **Updike** , what the fuck? This is the second time you’ve taken a cheap, predictable shot at **Guin**. Are your arguments really so weak that you have to supliment them with basement dweller cracks? I happen to disagree with you and **the raindog** and lean more toward **Siege** ’s point of view (abortion should be legal for those rare, terrible situations were bringing a child into the world isn’t the best decision), but I enjoy hearing your arguments. They give me something to think about. I know this is the Pit, but damn, show a little civility or get better jokes. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/419 "2006-03-03T16:44:22Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > **Updike** , what the fuck? This is the second time you’ve taken a cheap, predictable shot at **Guin**. Are your arguments really so weak that you have to supliment them with basement dweller cracks? Meh, it says more about him than it does about me. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/420 "2006-03-03T16:59:54Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Ok, let’s go with your example. The government doesn’t have to help with the resulting medical disaster. You don’t have free medical care. It would be morally pretty damn _bad,_ but the government has no legal requirement to act. Well, the government _writes_ the laws, so of course not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066.md?page=22)