# S.D. Gov'r "inclined" to ban abortions, shoves head up ass **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 25, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066 "2006-02-25T13:49:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/461 "2006-03-05T02:30:55Z")
**raindog** , you ARE aware that many fertilized eggs do NOT implant and are simply flushed out of the body, right? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/462 "2006-03-05T02:31:50Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > The only thing that will halt this process, and cause harm or death to the fetus, are _external factors_—disease, injury, or starvation intended or otherwise. > > In short, it doesn’t matter whether the fetus is nourished actively or passively. The process is “automatic”, and only external actions or forces will impact it. Incorrect. As has been pointed out in numerous threads, a large percentage of fertilized eggs fail to attach to the uterine wall. A further 10% are lost to miscarriage. It would appear you are trying to build a case which states that “pregnancy happens easily and a baby will occur 40 weeks later without complications except from extrernal sources.” This is an incredibly inaccurate assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/463 "2006-03-05T03:09:41Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > In short, it doesn’t matter whether the fetus is nourished actively or passively. The process is “automatic”, and only external actions or forces will impact it. I think this is the crux of your post, so I’ll just quote that, if you don’t mind. 🙂 I myself would say that the foetus is nourished passively for the most part, but as cravings show, sometimes that passive drain of resources can become as active a demand on the mother as anyone would have when _very_ thirsty, hungry, etc. Should that mother ignore this “above and beyond” appetite, the foetus will become malnourished. Now, that isn’t to say it will die - it may simply become maimed or be smaller for it’s age - but nevertheless, cells which should be grown are not, because of a withdrawal of an active outside source. You seem to be starting from the position that the increased food intake of a mother is “natural” - that it is included in the “normal passage of what occurs”. This isn’t so. A normal person eats a certain amount. When pregnant, they eat more, to nourish the foetus. The eating more is the change, not the starving of the baby. The mother goes out of their way and performs an outside (to the foetus) action in order for it to create new cells. Again, I don’t see how this is any different from the sperm/egg fertilization. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/464 "2006-03-05T07:21:04Z")
Ok, **Raindog** , I note once again you’ve failed to respond, coward that you are. Even if we grant that a fetus is a “human life”, why should we care ? A fetus is a mindless collection of tissue, no matter what you call it. All you do by calling it human is devalue the word “human”. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/465 "2006-03-05T10:16:47Z")
**The raindog** , I’ll echo what **Maureen** said about carrying a child to term not being as easy and automatic as you make it out to be. We had a family friend who had a history of miscarriages. In order to carry her twin daughters to term, or at least long enough for them to survive outside the womb, I’m told she had to spend her last three months of pregnancy on total bed rest, meaning the only time she was allowed out of bed was to use the bathroom. She put up with this because she desperately wanted to be a mother. Without people to bring her food, etc., given her past history, she would have miscarried. It’s not as simple as you’re making it out to be. CJ ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/466 "2006-03-05T10:26:26Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > I want to get into the specifics of the question \*\*“When does Personhood begin” > ers who are “20 week” PCers. > \*\* > **1) If Catsix, using her _only_ as an example, had an abortion in week 28, has she committed murder?** No. I don’t believe a 28 week pregnancy would be terminated for other then serious medical reasons. > > **2) If you answered “yes”, she has committed murder, and focusing only on her situation and not to use it as an example to outlaw abortion, would you say that in as much as pregnancies after 20 weeks are concerned, you have a greater commonality with Pro-Life people than [non 20 week] Pro-Choice people?** **Why/Why not?** > (if you answer “no”, please ‘N/A’) > N/A > > **3) If you answer “no”—and yet you recognize the 28 week fetus as a “person”—why do you believe she hasn’t committed a murder?** (if you answer "yes to #1, please N/A) > Because an abortion at that stage was obviously done for serious medical reasons, either hers or the fetuses. > > \*\*4) Regardless of how you answer #1, should she be prosecuted? Why/Why not?\*\*No (just to be repetetive) an abortion at that stage was obviously done to protect the health of the mother or because of the health of the fetus > > \*\*5) Is it fair to say that your views mirror those who are Pro-Life after week 20? Why/Why not?\*\*Maybe. Why? There is a distinct difference between a 24 week old fetus and a 6 week old one. > > **6)** _Generally speaking_ PLers see all fetuses as persons, _at conception_ while 20 week PCers make this distinction at _20 weeks._ The PLers (on average) allow abortion for a person only for rape/incest/mother’s health. **Would you agree that abortions for [post 20 week] persons should be restricted to rape/incest/mother’s health?** > Post 20 week should be about health. Either the womens health or the health of the fetus. Rape, incest etc should have been aborted well before 20 weeks. > > **7) If “no” to #6, what specific allowances for abortion would you make for a [post 20 week] person?** > What allowances would they want? “Hmmmm abortion…that sounds like fun”? > > **8) What is your general view towards the PCers who advocate “abortion at any point?” How does that differ from your view towards PLers?** > I think ProLifers should get a life :D. What I do with my body and any fetus unable to sustain life without me is my business. > > **9) To the extent you believe a fetus becomes a person at 20 weeks, what is the basis for that belief? (i.e. viability) To what extent are your views influenced by your religious views?** Viability. No religious views at all. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/467 "2006-03-05T10:44:18Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > But it is not **distinctly** a human, as separate from the man. A fertilized egg however, is a life that will develop into a baby, distinctly human, separate from the woman. A woman is not an egg incubator though. Yes she may have put herself in the position where an egg became fertilised but that does not mean the egg becomes ruler of the universe. For the record, I have been pregnant 3 times. I have one child, a lovely boy. I have had two abortions, one at age 20 and the other at 37. I don’t for a minute regret either. I didn’t for a minute consider them people. One abortion was done at 6 weeks the other at 16. Though history may have meant that once a woman was up the duff her fate was sealed, happily that is no longer true. IF my religion saw abortion as a crime against god then I wouldn’t have had one. BUT I HAVE NO RELIGION! Anyone that believes abortion is wrong has one choice…Don’t have one! Please don’t impose your religion on me or my body. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/468 "2006-03-05T11:28:14Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Ok, **Raindog** , I note once again you’ve failed to respond, coward that you are. Even if we grant that a fetus is a “human life”, why should we care ? A fetus is a mindless collection of tissue, no matter what you call it. All you do by calling it human is devalue the word “human”. Certainly the fetus is human. What do you suppose he is? An ostrich? A toaster? He’s human by definition. If you’re really trying to define “personhood,” then stick to terms like that. Saying a fetus isn’t human is a non-starter. A fetus at earliest stages is identical to a temporarily brain-dead adult. He is an individual, with a unique and linear identity that has existed since conception made him a separate human being (albeit one temporarily dependent upon another’s body), temporarily without the capacity for thought, but only temporarily. They are both “blobs of human tissue” in exactly the same sense with regard to their mental capacity. Both have (at certain points) no capacity for thought. Both in time will. BTW, bub, I’d suggest you refer to Occam’s Razor in assessing a lack of response to your posts in the future. Cowardice probably doesn’t enter into it. The fact that you’re a deliberate provocateur for the sake of provocation, a childish flinger of vacuous pseudo-intellectual poo, is the principal reason most people won’t respond to your nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/469 "2006-03-05T11:32:12Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > A fetus at earliest stages is identical to a temporarily brain-dead adult. **Identical** in the sense I go on to clarify. I’m not suggesting there aren’t other differences superficial to the “mental capacity” analogy. My sentence was not as clear as it should have been. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/470 "2006-03-05T12:07:29Z")
Why is this hypothetical fetus always a he? CMC fnord ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/471 "2006-03-05T12:14:06Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > Once again, I never said sperm is a human life. You may consider it alive in the same fashion your hair or fingernails are alive. > > But it is not **distinctly** a human, as separate from the man. A fertilized egg however, is a life that will develop into a baby, distinctly human, separate from the woman. No, You did not say “a” human life, but you do say human life. There is no shape of a human in the early stages of pregnancy,It may contain human life like a man’s sperm does but it has not yet developed into a human being. The clump of cells contain human life,just as your sperm does not contain the life of a fish. A pollenated apple blossom or a fertile egg is not an apple or a chicken, and you wouldn’t go to a restautant and ask for a scrambled chicken. Time and circumstance decides it’s developement into what it will become. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/472 "2006-03-05T12:16:03Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > No, You did not say “a” human life, but you do say human life. There is no shape of a human in the early stages of pregnancy,It may contain human life like a man’s sperm does but it has not yet developed into a human being. The clump of cells contain human life,just as your sperm does not contain the life of a fish. A pollenated apple blossom or a fertile egg is not an apple or a chicken, and you wouldn’t go to a restautant and ask for a scrambled chicken. Time and circumstance decides it’s developement into what it will become. > > Monavis , As post script I notice you said it will develope into a baby.“will” is the key word. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/473 "2006-03-05T12:37:24Z")
Actually, I’d argue that instead of “will” it should be “may” or “is likely to” if the fertilized egg impants in the uterus and no miscarriage occurs. By the way, **the raindog** , in the process of invitro fertilization, several eggs are fertilized and even allowed to divide a few times. Not all of these eggs are implanted. Of those that are implanted, not all develop successfully. In the US, we’ve had cases where all of the eggs which were implanted continue to develop, resulting in cases where a woman finds herself giving birth prematurely to 6 or 7 children; we’ve also had at least one case where a divorcing couple has sued over the fate of their frozen, unimplanted embryos. Most of the unimplanted ones, I gather will be destroyed or frozen until someone decides their fate. While I’ve heard of moves to adopt and implant them from some pro-lifers, it’s still pretty murky. **the raindog** , what’s your take on this as it applies to abortion? Are these people, in the process of taking extraordinary measures to give birth to one baby killing others? Do you put them in the same class as a woman who has an abortion because of a one night stand or a broken condom? I sometimes wish things were as simple as the pro-life movement makes them out to be, but the world I see out my window is messy and complicated and must be coped with as it is, not as I want it to be. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/474 "2006-03-05T12:51:47Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Why is this hypothetical fetus always a he? > > CMC fnord That’s the convention I was always taught in English class, actually–that a generic person should be limited to a singular pronoun, and “he” is the default. I believe William Strunk himself was an advocate of avoiding the clunky “he or she” convention. This is especially true in a thread like this where it serves to distinguish the fetus from the mother. No hidden message intended. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/475 "2006-03-05T15:11:34Z")
**DerTrihs** I don’t know how to say this in a way that doesn’t look like I’m flaming you, but I sincerely do not mean to. This is constructive, albeit blunt, criticism. I long ago gave up on your posts, and don’t even waste time on them. When I did, I occasionally saw something that made sense. (note: _made sense_; not that I would _agree_. I can’t ever remembering agreeing with something you’ve said. But you may have noticed the only people I talk to are people I don’t agree with.) I don’t know how many other posters, _if any_, feel as I do. But I’ve long ago tired with ‘Pro-Lifers hate woman and want to see them die slow deaths in back alley abortions while being eaten alive by jackals’ and ‘George Bush only wants to start WWIII so he can use nuclear bombs on Canada’ type posts. Dude, that gets so\* tiring.\* I’ve wondered if it was a maturity, or intelligence issue, or you just like trolling. I suspect you may have some interesting things to say, but if you garnish your posts with abject idiocy, don’t be surprised if people ignore you. Develop a pattern of sensible posts why don’t ya? In the meantime, I’ll gladly wear the mantle **"DerTrihs’s Coward"** ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/476 "2006-03-05T16:44:20Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > A fetus at earliest stages is identical to a temporarily brain-dead adult. He is an individual, with a unique and linear identity that has existed since conception made him a separate human being (albeit one temporarily dependent upon another’s body), temporarily without the capacity for thought, but only temporarily. They are both “blobs of human tissue” in exactly the same sense with regard to their mental capacity. Both have (at certain points) no capacity for thought. **Both in time will.** Huh? And you call what **Der Trihs** posts “nonsense”? There’s no such thing as “temporary” brain death, you nit. Once the brain is dead, it is DEAD. I think you are confusing brain death with coma, two very different things. A person has a chance to recover from coma, just for starters. I understand your reasons for being against abortion, and they’re all about religion and control. If you’re going to argue it from a medical angle, you’d better make sure you get it right. There are too many people in this thread who know what they’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/477 "2006-03-05T18:30:28Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Huh? And you call what **Der Trihs** posts “nonsense”? There’s no such thing as “temporary” brain death, you nit. Way to keep things civil, asshole. > [@](#): > > Once the brain is dead, it is DEAD. I think you are confusing brain death with coma, two very different things. A person has a chance to recover from coma, just for starters. There are rare instances of a patient who is a flat-liner, zero brain activity, who ultimately recovers. For example, some cases of severe hypothermia have produced this result. If you want to call them some other than “brain dead” (which is the term used in the last reference I saw), feel free. The fact remains they had no brain activity for a short period of time, then recovered it. > [@](#): > > I understand your reasons for being against abortion, and they’re all about religion and control. So now you’re a mind reader in addition to being a jackass? > [@](#): > > If you’re going to argue it from a medical angle, you’d better make sure you get it right. There are too many people in this thread who know what they’re talking about. Like you? You’re a riot! Try again, dipshit. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/478 "2006-03-05T18:52:54Z")
Anyone else noticed that of all the anti-choice posters in the thread, not a single one of them is female? Food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/479 "2006-03-05T18:56:03Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Way to keep things civil, asshole.There are rare instances of a patient who is a flat-liner, zero brain activity, who ultimately recovers. Tell you what. You give me a cite in which someone is declared clinically braindead and recovers, and I’ll take you seriously. Otherwise, you’re talking out your ass and are trying to bluff your way out and I will continue to ignore your blatherings with impugnity. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066/480 "2006-03-05T18:57:12Z")
Yeah, doesn’t “flat line” refer to heart beat? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-d-govr-inclined-to-ban-abortions-shoves-head-up-ass/346066.md?page=25)