# S. Morgenstern: Famous Florin Author or Anoying Literary Device? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 16, 2001, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674 "2001-07-16T14:06:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/21 "2003-07-22T16:23:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > \*\* **Finagle** provided a cite - the name of an actual book one can look up. \*\* Well, to be fair, I cited the name of another book by the same author. And the author is presenting inconsistent information. So you have your choice of which lie to believe šŸ™‚ To further muddy the waters, I believe S. Morgenstern also had another slim volume translated ā€“ ā€œThe Singing Gondoliersā€. ---
**Author:** ![Arien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arien)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/22 "2003-07-22T16:35:46Z")
So thereā€™s no chance of Buttercupā€™s Baby coming out, is there? I didnā€™t think so. ā˜¹ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/23 "2003-07-22T17:04:15Z")
Although well-suited for Cafe Society now, I think that when this thread was first created, that particular forum did not exist. ---
**Author:** ![October](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@October](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/October)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/24 "2003-07-22T17:08:03Z")
Last time I checked, the latest edition of The Princess Bride in bookstores has a preview chapter of ā€œButtercupā€™s Baby.ā€ I read it, and itā€™s not as good. Of course, it was only the first chapter, but sinceā€¦no, I wonā€™t ruin it. Thereā€™s more of the whole spiel about Morgensternā€™s lawyers suing him, his wife and fat son (who has slimmed down by this time), etc. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/25 "2003-07-22T23:27:43Z")
But **Finagle** , regardless of the _quality_ of the cite, it is a cite. Whereas **Fenris** only provided a statement, with no reference to anything - no book to look up, no letter from the author, no website created by a drunken imbicile - nothinā€™. See my point? As for S. Morgenstern having another work, was that one also edited/abridged/translated by Goldman? Because a librarian friend of mine did a search on S. Morgenstern and only turned up Goldmanā€™s name, no separate works. Which would have turned up if they existed. _Buttercupā€™s Baby_ does not appear to exist except as the excerpt in the newer copies of _The Princess Bride_. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/26 "2003-07-22T23:36:44Z")
Wow, I was just about to start this thread. Great timing! Okay, so the narrator and the author are different people with the same name. Why was the first chapter so depressing? The only thing I can thing of was the fact that the book was written in the ā€˜70s, post-Watergate and everyone was feeling a bit bitter. Itsā€™ also a contrast to the wonderful fairy world of the chapters to follow. I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/27 "2003-07-23T20:35:42Z")
Someone described the book as a post-modern fairy tale, i.e. deconstructionist. Itā€™s Goldmanā€™s way of playing with the audience, contrasting the happy fairy tale with the gloom of real life. Iā€™ve been looking back at why I fell for the ploy. There were things said that tweaked my skeptic sensor - like Florin and Guilder being locations, and Florinese scholars. On the other hand, I was thinking there was a Florin, Italy. (I guess not - thereā€™s a Florence, which may have thrown me off. Also, florins and guilders are forms of currency, which may have triggered the sense of familiarity. Note: florins = guilders = guldens, from the Netherlands.) But in the end, I finally bought in to it because of the detail and cohesiveness of the ā€œnarrationā€ part, and that in order for some of it to be made up it all had to be made up, which I wasnā€™t ready to accept. Turns out is all _was_ made up. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/28 "2003-07-23T23:33:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > \*\ ***Fenris** , no that is not a cite. Thatā€™s a _statement_. All you did was state (and then restate) something you claim to be true. You gave no way to verify that. **Finagle** provided a cite - the name of an actual book one can look up. \*\* :rolleyes: Hey pal, this ainā€™t Great Debates and I feel no obligation to do any work responding to a rebuttal to a two year old post I made. In any case, personally, I donā€™t give a good gawddamn if you believe me or not. I donā€™t care all that much about the argument. If youā€™re all that interested in finding out, do some research on Goldman yourself and see if Iā€™m right or wrong. If I wanted to do someoneā€™s homework/legwork for them, Iā€™d have posted (two f\*cking years ago!) in a different forum. :: mutters :: the SDMB _really_ needs a ā€œNo Zombie Threads, dammit!ā€ policy :: mutters :: Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/29 "2003-07-23T23:55:09Z")
Well, the discussion seems to continue, even after a 2 year break. Irishman is right about the Florin and the Guilder: both are names for the former currency of the Netherlands, the former being even more archaic than the latter. Of course, itā€™s all Euros now. Off to Cafe Society with this zombie. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/30 "2003-07-24T00:58:24Z")
Sheesh. If you want a cite to the fact that William Goldman, the real-life author _The Princess Bride,_ has two daughters,watch the special edition DVD. He specifically says that he asked his daughters what kind of story to write: one said to write a story about a princess, the other said to write a story about a bride. I canā€™t find a cite, Iā€™m afraid, that specifically and categorically denies the hypothetical parallel-universe existence of a son. FISH ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/31 "2003-07-24T01:55:07Z")
However, I feel it only fair to give credit where credit is due, and particularly on this board. You all will recall **Cecil** ā€™s occasional allusions to his trip to Europe? And his well-known interest (albeit charged with his ever-present sardonic wit) in the preservation of endangered species? I think it clear that Cecil captured (as only he could), and brought back with him, a mated pair of ROUSes. How do you think the Board was upgraded and its speed accelerated to the present state this last time? Hamsters? Ptui! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/32 "2003-07-24T02:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > \*\* Because a librarian friend of mine did a search on S. Morgenstern and only turned up Goldmanā€™s name, no separate works. Which would have turned up if they existed. Not neccesarily. Very little Florinese literature has been translated into English. (Some would say that thatā€™s because very little Florinese literature is any good, but I trust I donā€™t need to explain why that attitude is below contempt.) ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/33 "2003-07-24T02:41:04Z")
God, donā€™t I love Bill Goldman. _The Princess Bride_ used to be an unspoken litmus test for acceptability into our family circa early 80s. It worked terrifically: You gave out the book to be read and if the subject was convulsed with laughter they were in. All was working well until I gave the book to my boss in 1984. She came back and asked me if I knew where to find the original Florinese versionā€¦ And Goldmanā€™s other Morgenstern opus is _The Silent Gondoliers: A Fable by S. Morgenstern_. I was up at my sisterā€™s house this weekend and my eye caught the title on her bookshelves. I have yet to read it. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/34 "2003-07-24T02:56:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*However, I feel it only fair to give credit where credit is due, and particularly on this board. You all will recall **Cecil** ā€™s occasional allusions to his trip to Europe? And his well-known interest (albeit charged with his ever-present sardonic wit) in the preservation of endangered species? > > I think it clear that Cecil captured (as only he could), and brought back with him, a mated pair of ROUSes. How do you think the Board was upgraded and its speed accelerated to the present state this last time? > > Hamsters? Ptui! \*\* :smack: Of course ! It all make sense now ! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/35 "2003-07-24T03:30:52Z")
I wonder if you cross reference this thread against the Does 0.9999ā€¦ = 1? threads in GQ, whether you will find that the same people here who believe that there actually is a writer named S. Morgenstern are the same ones who will insist against all proof that 0.9999ā€¦ is a different number than 1. There canā€™t be two such groups on the SDMB, can there? ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/36 "2003-07-24T03:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MonkeyMensch \* > \*\*And Goldmanā€™s other Morgenstern opus is _The Silent Gondoliers: A Fable by S. Morgenstern_. I was up at my sisterā€™s house this weekend and my eye caught the title on her bookshelves. I have yet to read it. \*\* Eh, itā€™s okay. Even when Goldman was bad he was good (see: _Heat_), but I donā€™t think he recaptured the Morgenstern flair he evinced in _The Princess Bride_. Also, Goldman used a literary truth as opposed to a literal truth when describing himself in _The Princess Bride_. Basically, yeah, he lied to make the story betterā€“if you want to view it that way. But since the book is a tongue-in-cheek parody, anyway, literal truths shouldnā€™t be expected to apply. Itā€™d be like walking away from Monty Pythonā€™s _Holy Grail_ wondering how come the the Black Knight could still talk and move after getting everything cut off. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/37 "2003-07-24T04:18:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Exapno Mapcase \* > \*\*I wonder if you cross reference this thread against the Does 0.9999ā€¦ = 1? threads in GQ, whether you will find that the same people here who believe that there actually is a writer named S. Morgenstern are the same ones who will insist against all proof that 0.9999ā€¦ is a different number than 1. There canā€™t be two such groups on the SDMB, can there? \*\* What is this inequality (.999ā€¦ ~= 1.000) that you speak of? Re: **SkipMagic**. Iā€™m not avoiding it, I just havenā€™t got around to it yet. I enjoy reading him even when heā€™s off. Heā€™s a terrific story teller. ---
**Author:** ![Shemem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Shemem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shemem)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/38 "2003-07-24T04:36:50Z")
'Course thereā€™s an S. Morgenstern. He hangs out with Lemony Snickett. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/39 "2003-07-24T04:50:05Z")
And all S. Morgensternā€™s films are directed by Alan Smitheeā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674/40 "2003-07-24T12:53:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shemem \* > \*\*'Course thereā€™s an S. Morgenstern. He hangs out with Lemony Snickett. \*\* I donā€™t know who this ā€œLemony Snickettā€ fellow is, but Iā€™m pretty sure that S. Morgenstern is a good friend of Kilgore Trout, the great Science Fiction author. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/s-morgenstern-famous-florin-author-or-anoying-literary-device/72674.md?page=3)